Bonus Goal classes berserker, beastmaster, halfling bounder, halfling burglar, "hoodlum"

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CharlesDM
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Bonus Goal classes berserker, beastmaster, halfling bounder, halfling burglar, "hoodlum"

I thought I’d open a thread for Bonus Goal new class general discussion. The Bonus Goal new classes are berserker, beastmaster, halfling bounder, halfling burglar, and "hoodlum". (Should any patron deities seek input or supplication, perhaps they will open another thread.)

Berserker

“a shield-biting shape-changing madman of Norse myth”

The inspiration for the Heroic Fantasy Handbook (HFH) berserker seems to be Viking berserkers of history and myth. Professor Tolkien was very familiar with these myths. If one holds the myths to be true, the greatest among such a class might be rather like Beorn, of The Hobbit.

Beastmaster

“a lordly king of the jungle equally at home in B action movies and E.R. Burroughs novels”

Tarzan seems to be the primary inspiration for the HFH beastmaster, but I suspect a Tarzan-like class would easily support a certain 80s movie beastmaster named Dar.

Halfling bounder
Halfling burglar

The inspiration is well-known. An advantage of no halflings appearing in ACKS core has been many halfling classes appearing on these forums. I think each one has been of interest, with some being mechanically innovative. The challenge, perhaps, is it’s much easier to create a BX halfling than the ACKS halfling race underlying any ACKS halfling classes. (Reading the Kickstarter text literally, we likely will not see a final halfling race, only the initial two classes. But the race is still a challenge for Alex.)

Like humans, normal (monster chapter/listing) halflings probably need to be thought of as 0-level (?), although saving as E1 (?). Like the gnome, the halfling monster entry might need tweaking after we have an “official” halfling class (?). (Note that no “official” tweaking of the gnome monster entry has yet occurred, although the results can be seen in the L&E gnome lair.)

"Hoodlum"

“an alternative build of the thief designed for heroic fantasy ... class name is subject to change”

HFH Thievery additions were previewed here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/heroic-fantasy-and-barbaria...

I like the new equipment and the general concept of success being a matter of time, time being of greater importance in a game with wandering monsters and generally diminishing resources over time. It seems to me that great thieves do things fast, in the way a professional athlete makes athletics look easy (but it’s not).

Also, some form of improved interaction with hijinks seems an avenue for an ACKS alternative build of the classic thief.

What are your thoughts on the Bonus Goal classes of berserker, beastmaster, halfling bounder, halfling burglar, and "hoodlum"?

The Dark
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A beastmaster with some uncanny powers could also be a fair substitute for the druid in TSR-era AD&D. A bit less magic, a bit more "person totally in tune with nature." It would also support characters like Mowgli.

For berserker, it would be interesting (to me, at least) for them to have a totem similar to shamans, so you could have wolf berserkers (ulfhednar) in addition to the berserkir. I could also see fox (for a more Dex-based type), great cat (lion/tiger/leopard), and even more exotic things like crocodile being berserker totems.

creases
Joined: 2012-02-13 01:55

As a name for the "hoodlum" class—I like something like "rogue" or "scoundrel," generic as they may be. I'd sure feel goofy putting "hoodlum" on my character sheet.

GMJoe
Joined: 2013-01-04 12:56

As a name for the "hoodlum" class—I like something like "rogue" or "scoundrel," generic as they may be. I'd sure feel goofy putting "hoodlum" on my character sheet.

-creases

I just had an immediate, visceral, negative reation to the idea of calling any class "rogue." The reason is of course D&D 3.5rd edition, which included a class that with abilities that made it a fit for good thieves, sabateurs, scouts and infiltrators... Which for some reason they decided to name after the personality traits of a few characters who might have taken levels in that class, instead of after the capabilities and professions that class was designed to represent.

wmarshal
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As a name for the "hoodlum" class—I like something like "rogue" or "scoundrel," generic as they may be. I'd sure feel goofy putting "hoodlum" on my character sheet.


-creases

 

I just had an immediate, visceral, negative reation to the idea of calling any class "rogue." The reason is of course D&D 3.5rd edition, which included a class that with abilities that made it a fit for good thieves, sabateurs, scouts and infiltrators... Which for some reason they decided to name after the personality traits of a few characters who might have taken levels in that class, instead of after the capabilities and professions that class was designed to represent.


-GMJoe

How about using 'Ne'er-do-well' as a class name?

GMJoe
Joined: 2013-01-04 12:56

How about using 'Ne'er-do-well' as a class name?

-wmarshal

That has the same kind of issue, in that it describes a personality trait that's only vaguely connected to what the class does. My reaction's less visceral and more considered, though, what with how I haven't had spend years listening to players using the term.

James C. Bennett
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I like shortening it to "hood", but I prefer class names to be one syllable and to be the same as the first level title. So you start out with vet, scout, and knight--instead of fighter, explorer, and cleric--for the former soldiers; and hood, thug, and fence--instead of thief, assassin, and venturer--for the former ruffians. It sounds more "zero to hero". 

Stick with mage and priest for the lifetime scholars.

5 Stone Games
Joined: 2017-04-06 17:08

I'm with creases , hoodlum is a meh name. Rogue fits will , think Rogues in The House here 

Beatsmaster sounds like a  fun class to play and a nice throwback to the 80's movie of the same name. 

In case someone who hasn't seen them  wants to watch them, the 1st is proper 80's style heroic fantasy with beefcake, hot slave girls, goofy weapons , low magic

 The 2nd more modern with a fun "dimension travel" aspect and the 3rd, its 90's heroic fantasy. I didn't care hugely for it but its very S&S 

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

What do you think of a word that suggests looting, treasure hunting, etc.:

  • Heister
  • Looter
  • Plunderer

Or some rogue-like words:

  • Desperado
  • Knave
  • Outlaw
  • Rogue
  • Scoundrel

Or some synonyms for thief:

  • Bandit
  • Burglar
  • Robber
  • Stealer 

There are also more violent sounding terms like:

  • Marauder
  • Raider
  • Ravager
  • Thug

 

 

 

 

 

5 Stone Games
Joined: 2017-04-06 17:08

Riader is usually  used  as an alternate  for Barbarians ind20 games , capitalizing on the classes  higher movemnt rate and sometimes adding  skirmish abilites. D20 Game of Thrones does this, think Viking here / 

Knave isn't bad, its used in the D20 Game of Thrones game for a Thief variation but its too medieval for my tastes 

Of course all this depends on what you are doing with the class, if you are going more "skilled guy tougher than a thief" something like The Grey Mouser you'll want a more generic name like Rogue (kind of like the Pathfinder version) , Heavy Hitter with some stealth would call for a different name.  I personally would avoid anything that is a specific crime myself and Burglar  is for hobitsses 

jedavis
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Some sillier suggestions: misappropriator, acquisator, pilferer, ...

A fun party game: they say the Inuit have a hundred words for snow, and the Arabs a hundred words for sand, but how many words has English for theft?

I rather like burglar and knave. I agree with the distaste for hoodlum, and feel that rogue is played out.

creases
Joined: 2012-02-13 01:55

I suppose "tortfeasor" doesn't have the necessary ring to it.

wmarshal
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Out of the list of names provided by Alex my preference would be for knave.

koewn
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Hm. I'd like to see what's either included or excluded from the base thief.

I've long wanted to see a class that could just be called "Adventurer", and I'd usually envisioned it as a HD1/F1/T2 that has the dungeony door/trap/etc. set of skills. The sort of career or skill-set that people would naturally gravitate to given a world full of treasure-laden ruins.

 

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Hm. I'd like to see what's either included or excluded from the base thief.

I've long wanted to see a class that could just be called "Adventurer", and I'd usually envisioned it as a HD1/F1/T2 that has the dungeony door/trap/etc. set of skills. The sort of career or skill-set that people would naturally gravitate to given a world full of treasure-laden ruins.


-koewn

That's actually a really good idea.

 

Aryxymaraki
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Hm. I'd like to see what's either included or excluded from the base thief.

I've long wanted to see a class that could just be called "Adventurer", and I'd usually envisioned it as a HD1/F1/T2 that has the dungeony door/trap/etc. set of skills. The sort of career or skill-set that people would naturally gravitate to given a world full of treasure-laden ruins.

 


-koewn

I personally named this class Archeologist >.>

(Their proficiency list does include whips, yes, why do you ask?)

koewn
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That's actually a really good idea.


-Alex

/me prints this out poster-sized, hangs it on his wall


 

I personally named this class Archeologist >.>

(Their proficiency list does include whips, yes, why do you ask?)


-Aryxymaraki

I named mine "Fortune Hunter", but it's got my hacked-up half-caster progression I'd whipped up way before Axioms, etc, and may actually be a bit too-genre aware. Archeologist was the 9th level title. And the template came with a fedora.

 

Solthas
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I like knave.

ZeroSum
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And the template came with a fedora.


-koewn

We can always change it to "Time weathered yet stylish hat" and let the imagination fill in the rest.

moorcrys
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Explorer is taken... I like adventurer for its simplicity. 

Knave, scamp, miscreant, scoundrel (too Star Wars-y).

Seeker, traveler, pathfinder (heh).

Fixer.

What about "macgyver"?

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Here's where I am right now:

Class Name: Freebooter

Why freebooter? It sounds very in-genre. And the literal definiton (from Dutch) is "plunderer". While it often is used to mean pirate, the actual definition of a freebooter is "a person who goes about in search of plunder". "a person, such as a pirate, living from plunder"; "a person, especially an itinerant, who seeks pleasure and wealth without responsiblity"; "an adventurer who pillages, plunders, or wages ad-hoc war on other nations"; "one who plunders or pillages without the authority of national warfare"; "a member of a predatory band"; "a pillager"; "one who wanders about in search of plunder, a robber, a pillager, a plunderer"; "someone who takes spoils or plunder". Perfect!

Paths:

  • Expeditionary - a looter of tombs and delver of dungeons [optimized for dungeon thievery]
  • Ruffian -  a cut-throat and killer [a sneaky damage dealer, similar to the 3.5E rogue]
  • Scoundrel - the gentleman-thief [optimized for disguise and charlatanism]
  • Wayfarer - a bandit, highwayman, or scout [optimized for wilderness thievery]

Build:

Build will be HD 0, FIghter 2, Thief 2. Trade Fighter value down to broad weapons (+1 power), narrow armor (+2 powers), 2 fighting styles (+1 power), and one damage bonus (melee or missile) (+1 power), to yield 10 powers. 

XP per level will be 1000 + 400 + (150 x 5) = 2150XP.

This will give a class with the level of proficiency of a thief combined with the hitting power of a fighter. However, its staying power is only half that of a fighter, and less than that of an assassin, paladin, etc. 

NOTE that only the thief value can be used for the thief skills so this requires some careful thought. The exclusive thief-only skills are Pick Pockets, Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Backstab, Move Silently, and Hide in Shadows (Climbing and Hear Noise are available as proficiencies).  So that means each of the 4 paths can only have 5 of these 7. 

I'd love your recommendations as to which of each they ought have.

 

 

 

wmarshal
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Expeditionary - a looter of tombs and delver of dungeons [optimized for dungeon thievery]

  1. ​Find Traps
  2. Remove Traps
  3. Open Locks
  • Ruffian -  a cut-throat and killer [a sneaky damage dealer, similar to the 3.5E rogue]
  1. Hide in Shadows
  2. Move Silently
  3. Backstab
  • Scoundrel - the gentleman-thief [optimized for disguise and charlatanism]
  1. Pick Pockets (he steals the keys to the lock instead of picking them)
  2. Move Silently
  3. Hide in Shadows
  • Wayfarer - a bandit, highwayman, or scout [optimized for wilderness thievery]
  1. Hide in Shadows
  2. Move Silently
  3. Backstab

I limited myself to 3 suggestions each so that the suggestions allow the possibility that the build might change to being Fighting 2, Hit Die 1, Thief 1.

 

Jard
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it seems weird that the wayfarer would have the same skills as the ruffian, but the skills i am imagining are not thief skills.

As we discussed elsewhere, the wayfarer probably has "difficult to spot" so that their backstabbing happens as an ambush.  Whether they also have sniping to strike from range and possibly run the following round or acrobatics to get more backstabs is unclear.  Maybe move silently and hide in shadows ARE important for them to have.

koewn
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 Maybe move silently and hide in shadows ARE important for them to have.


-Jard

Hm.

So, given "difficult to spot" succeeds on a 3+ in the wilderness, Hide In Shadows seems superfluous for the outdoorsy bandit? Put another way, Difficult To Spot lets you hide in underbrush as  a 12th level thief, and in dungeon cover as a 6th level thief (14+). If you're primarly an outdoorsman, you're much better off with Difficult To Spot for hiding.

I'd not thought about those two proficiencies/skills in combination before. Interesting. I'm kinda curious if 3+/dungeon and 14+/woods, the reverse, is balanced. Or a Devices proficiency that's 12+/2+ open locks or remove traps (and the reverse).

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10


Perhaps listing out all 10 skills we think they should have might be a good way to proceed. Up to the first five are thief-exclusive abilities. Some thoughts...

Expeditionary - a looter of tombs and delver of dungeons [optimized for dungeon thievery]

  1. ​Find Traps
  2. Remove Traps
  3. Open Locks
  4. Climb Walls
  5. Dungeon Bashing proficiency (for stuck dungeon doors)?
  6. Alertness proficiency (to find secret doors)?
  7. Mapping proficiency (to retrace his steps)?
  8. Trap Finding proficiency (bonus to find traps, finds them faster)?
  9. Blindfighting proficiency?
  • Ruffian -  a cut-throat and killer [a sneaky damage dealer, similar to the 3.5E rogue]
  1. Pickpockets (cut-purse)
  2. Hide in Shadows
  3. Move Silently
  4. Backstab
  5. Intimidation?
  6. Weapon Finesse proficiency?
  7. Swashbuckling proficiency?
  8. Brawling proficiency?
  9. Gambling proficiency?
  10. Skulking proficiency?
  • Scoundrel - the gentleman-thief [optimized for disguise and charlatanism]. I am basing this character on Locke Lamora.
  1. Pick Pockets (sleight of hand)
  2. Open Locks (for breaking & entering)
  3. Move Silently
  4. Hide in Shadows
  5. Backstab
  6. Disguise (as Charlatan)
  7. Climbing proficiency?
  8. Cat Burglary proficiency (for daring second-story adventures)?
  9. Mimicry proficiency (to do foreign accents)?
  10. Eavesdropping proficiency?
  11. Lip Reading proficiency?
  • Wayfarer - a bandit, highwayman, or scout [optimized for wilderness thievery]
  1. Backstab
  2. Move Silently
  3. Climb Walls
  4. Avoid Getting Lost/Wilderness Evasion (as explorer)
  5. Difficult to Spot (as explorer)
  6. Sniping proficiency?
  7. Trapping proficiency?
  8. Land surveying proficiency?
  9. Mountaineering proficiency?
  10. Navigation proficiency?
  11. Running proficiency? Or Riding?
  12. ?
CharlesDM
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My initial thoughts to Alex's first post; I've just seen the second post.

Asterisk (*) below indicates a proficiency/skill selected with a non-Thievery power.

Expeditionary

a looter of tombs and delver of dungeons [optimized for dungeon thievery]

Climb Walls*, Hear Noise*, Find Traps, Open Locks, Remove Traps

Note: I’m envisioning the Expeditionary as a specialist, non-melee combatant, thus no Backstab, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently. The difficult to spot power might be appropriate as low cost stealth.

Ruffian

a cut-throat and killer [a sneaky damage dealer, similar to the 3.5E rogue]

Climb Walls*, Backstab, Find Traps, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Open Locks

Note: Climb Walls, Find Traps, and Open Locks to reach a well-protected target.

Scoundrel

the gentleman-thief [optimized for disguise and charlatanism]

Hear Noise*, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Pick Pockets

Note: Hear Noise because of Carousing, and Hide in Shadows because of Spying. Pick Pockets suggests many Freebooters choose the less deadly path of Scoundrel, per the rulebook comment “this skill is the bread and butter of nonadventuring thieves.”

Wayfarer

a bandit, highwayman, or scout [optimized for wilderness thievery]

Backstab, Hear Noise*, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently

Note: Hear Noise because of “scout” and Carousing. Hide in Shadows because of Spying, and Move Silently because of Smuggling. A Wayfarer might select Trapping proficiency to “detect and disable simple wilderness pits, snares, deadfalls, etc., as a thief of his class level.”

CharlesDM
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I want to back up for a moment and thank Alex for the explanation of the Freebooter class name. That was really interesting!

As the paths are developing, it appears we may not need 10 powers at 1st level. We should continue working through the paths, but I think it would be good both to reduce the XP of the class (via a reduced Fighting value trade-off XP penalty) and to extend powers gained over multiple levels through power trade-offs.

Similarly, as we “re-invent” the Thief, and therein the Thieves’ Guild (!), I see the Thief as a class that tries to “do it all” Thievery-wise, and maybe not so well as we would like. But we have the opportunity for the Freebooter paths to focus on areas of Thievery, such that any given path may be “less than” a Thief, but one or more of each path working together will be “greater than” 4 or more Thieves, i.e. making the Thieves’ (or Freebooters’) Guild the “team sport” it is often portrayed as in the literature.

Comparing my initial thoughts on thief skills with Alex’s second post on all path powers, we mostly agree on the core thief skills for each path. Where Alex’s second post concerns me (and I may misunderstand) is in “hard-coding” existing proficiency selections by path. If proficiency selections are to be a core of how the Freebooter’s paths are to be differentiated, this may point to one or more bonus class proficiencies as power choices.

I would first look to the core thief skills and ways to enhance them by path. This is complicated somewhat by the new HFH Thievery rules, in that I find myself looking at the Thief, then the new rules, then the Freebooter possible paths, trying not to forget some salient point.

Focusing on the Expeditionary, Find Traps and Remove Traps are core to the path (I have visions of Dungeons & Dragons Online in my mind). Trap Finding proficiency points the way, but these looters of tombs are really good at trap finding. What if:

At 1st level the Expeditionary is an expert trap finder, receiving a +2 bonus on proficiency throws to find and remove traps. He may find or remove a trap in one round (rather than one turn) by making a successful proficiency throw with a -4 penalty. At level 7, he may find or remove a trap in one round by making a successful proficiency throw with no penalty. At level 13, he may find or remove a trap during combat in lieu of making an attack by making a successful proficiency throw with a -4 penalty.

What do you think? Not just on my comments but the Freebooter as it is developing. Speak up, community!

CharlesDM
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And I'm back, to continue my unchallenged domination of this thread ;)

I was thinking, as long as we're playtesting the Freebooter, maybe this is the perfect opportunity to playtest one of these options: http://www.autarch.co/forums/general-discussion/flat-thief-abilities

Any of the options that would allow a thieving class to allocate their thieving skill advances by level would assist in the specialization/"teamwork" approach to thieving I mention above.

Alex
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Well, we discussed using some of those variants in the last Chat of Kings, and all of the attendees were 100% against them. They thought that having different progressions for the Thief and the Freebooter were a dreadful idea - bad for verisimilitude, bad for balance, etc.

 

CharlesDM
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To clarify to the Kings, I do not propose that the Freebooter use a new skill advancement while the Thief keeps the old skill advancement. I propose playtesting a new skill advancement methodology that, as an option, could be retrofit to the Thief, in the same way that the Eldritch progression may be retrofit to a Cleric or Mage. Perhaps the Kings ruled that out as well?

wmarshal
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From what I recall the point the participants of the King chat were making was that whichever method of resolving thief skills is chosen, it should be applied to all classes within a campaign. I don't think we concluded that flat thief abilities should not be an option. Personally, I don't know that I'd choose that option for my campaign. Between selection of tools, DEX modifiers coming into play (from sneak preview) and choice of proficiency a 1st level thief can get a +7 modified to their Find/Remove Traps throws. With some more expensive equipment that can be raised to +11 on the throws.

Jard
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yes, the idea is that flat or gradual progression for thief and thief variants is fine, but whichever is chosen, ALL should use the same progression.  A differentiating point of the freebooter should NOT be that they're just a thief but with flat skills.

KAW
Joined: 2017-05-08 12:55

Hello

It seems to me that the freebooter is a fighter with a glass jaw, and likely can be modeled by offering other class variations to similiar classes that access the abilities of a thief or subterfuge. Assassins, bards and explorers come to mind. I can't really imagine all the pirates following Conan having D4 HD for example. But clever replacement of key assassin or explorer abilities could give the right feel for a pirate or mariner class.
Alternatively, the freebooter builds could be offered as seperate paths (like the mystic path in Axioms 3) so that a barbarian could pick a few levels as a freebooter (skills only). This would allow ACKS to model a hyborian feel for its characters. Allowing them to  be capable of great feats of arms, while still able to sneak past the gaurds of the temple, tower or fortress.