Permanent Effect, Unlimited Use magic items

I've only been running ACKS for a few game sessions, by my players managed to loot a few thousand GP and are thinking of what sorts of things they can afford to buy now.  They are especially interested in healing items, because they have just one Priestess among their fairly large team (they're using lots of henchmen).  I told them that buying a potion of Cure Light Wounds was 1,000 GP, but buying a once per day "wand" of CLW would only cost 10,000 GP.  Since they're sure to get more uses out of it, from my perspective it seems like it would be foolish to buy potions instead.

I note that by sellign the casting for the default market price, the 1/day CLW pays for itself in 33 months (10 kGP/(10 GP*30 day/month)), so that seems in line with the ROI assumptions built into the rules for someone to have one commissioned.  A spell caster who had created one previously could start crafting them for only 2.5 kGP though, right (with some chances to fail)?  Even in a relatively modest community, it shouldn't be too difficult to get a handful of these spells being sold each day, giving the crafter a considerable ROI.  I have read mention of the Fragments of the Tablet of Destiny being used to limit or prevent creation of disruptive or unbalanced items, but it seems like a 1/day first level spell item shouldn't be in that category quite yet, even though it already feels problematic.

Now, imagine if some enterprising divine-type crafted a 25,000 GP unlimited item of CLW, instead. They could move to a class I market, capture virtually all demand by selling CLW for only 2 GP instead of the market rate of 10, and net on average 900 GP per day (even without increased demand which would presumably follow reduced cost), which paid for their item in just 1 month.  Compared to the 150 kGP Ring of Regeneration, the unlimited CLW item is even better in some ways (multiple targets, can use after being injured instead of locking it to one person), despite being much less expensive.  This feel firmly in the realm of too good to be true.

My question is: should the Permanent Effect items for healing even be creatable?  If so, should they have an upper limit on frequency?  Should I raise the price such that they take ~33 months to pay for themselves?  If healing items are problematic, does the same apply to every spell that has a reasonably high market demand?  What about spells that are implausible to sell (or sell at scale), such as Magic Missile?

I understand that someone who tried to disrupt the spell market on a large scale would be the target of numerous hijinks, but assuming that they're in cahoots with the local leader of the biggest thieves guild and the king, and this kind of thing could go on for a while before someone manages to put a stop to it (and they might steal and perpetuate the problem).  I'm not especially interested in ways to deal with a problematic item, but with which items should and shold not be allowed.

The question is: Does divine magic actually take power from a god? If it does, then do wands still do as much? If that IS the case, then isn't making a cheap wand to constantly steal power from a god a REALLY BAD IDEA?

The god might take umbridge with the creation of it, or send a party to get it and destroy it after the fact. Remember as well that the creator of this item is AT LEAST a 9th level divine caster, which means they're very high up in their organisation and are probably not gonna spend weeks trying to cheat their own church out of money. These aren't wizards we're talking about here.

IANAA, but...

[quote="AlexM"]

My question is: should the Permanent Effect items for healing even be creatable?

[/quote]

No.

1/day widgets of healing are not (to my knowledge) found in any edition prior to 3rd, and even in 3e Wands of CLW were an artifact of publishing a player-facing, one size fits all pricing guide.  The fact that ACKS has pricing for any particular thing you might want to do does not automatically mean anything you can price off the chart should be allowed.

Contra my take is the example of the Staff of Healing, which is right there on the treasure tables.  I think that's better treated as a singular instance, salvaged by it's much higher base cost, but I can see some GMs might disagree.

[quote="Shub-Nullgurath"]

The question is: Does divine magic actually take power from a god? If it does, then do wands still do as much? If that IS the case, then isn't making a cheap wand to constantly steal power from a god a REALLY BAD IDEA?

The god might take umbridge with the creation of it, or send a party to get it and destroy it after the fact. ...

[/quote]

My experience with that degree of in-world game balancing is that it either goes unused or, more rarely, turns the game into being all about that retribution.  And the latter gets weird, because in a spotlight and plot sense the wielder is privileged, not disadvantaged.

A less nuke-it-from-orbit solution might be that the wand-wielder has to observe the cleric's code of whatever god the wand is dedicated to, over and above any of their own, or that their own code is increased in difficulty.

Keep in mind that for the same price of the 25k infinite wand of cure light wounds, you could hire (before factoring recruitment costs) 8,333 man-months of light spearmen.  You could hire 240 of them for almost 3 years, but it might not take 3 years to attack the cleric and take his magical item.  But that's a narrative solution rather than a mechanical one.

Other considerations are that the 1/day or infinite use CLW items require a divine spellcaster to use them, as opposed to a potion which can be drank by anyone.  This means that a party with only one priestess will be very sad when she is taken out of the fight first.

of course not everything that is produceable by rules as written is actually balanced, even when you consider all the other things that gold could be spent on. Since every campaign is a law unto itself, you should feel free to disallow certain combinations.  If you're not sure whether it's overpowered or not, go back to the comment I made earlier: obviously powerful magic items that completely throw off the balance of the economy should be REACTED to.  All the other clerics are not going to be happy about your priestess's item.  Wrong or right they're going to label her a heretic and try to burn her at the stake (while conveniently keeping the item for themselves).

I think your economic assessment is quite fair.

Avoiding these sort of circumstances is the reason that magic items are priced so high. That said, the magic items are still more-or-less scaled around the assumption of adventurers, who explore once per month and have maybe 5-10 encounters per adventure, mostly spread at a rate of one encounter per hour. And outside of that context, the items are actually much too cheap.

For player-created items, you could assign a limit on the total number of uses per day as well as on the frequency of use, maybe something like:

  • One use per round: maximum of 25 uses per day
  • One use per turn: maximum of 16 uses per day
  • One use per 3 turns: maximum of 12 uses per day
  • One use per hour: maximum of 8 uses per day

That's very unlikely to impact (or even be noticed by) a typical adventuring party that has 5 encounters per adventuring day spread out at intervals of an hour or so (from searching and so on), but it makes a huge difference for economic purposes. 

 

 

One thing that I would probably bring over from 3E to solve this: In 3E, a magic item usable 5/day and unlimited use cost the same.

So I houseruled that PCs cannot craft an item usable more than five times a day. Permanent effect unlimited use is for passive items, in my opinion.

[quote="Aryxymaraki"] One thing that I would probably bring over from 3E to solve this: In 3E, a magic item usable 5/day and unlimited use cost the same. So I houseruled that PCs cannot craft an item usable more than five times a day. Permanent effect unlimited use is for passive items, in my opinion. [/quote]

 

yeah there's other stuff you have to watch out for too. like if something's duration is 6 turns, then a magic item with that effect usable 1/hour is cheaper than an item with that effect on permanently.

[quote="Shub-Nullgurath"]

The question is: Does divine magic actually take power from a god?

[/quote]

Presumably yes, but perhaps crafting the wand/item simply bundles up the divine energy involved at creation rather than permanently tapping into to god's power.  Maybe if each use of the item drains out the cost of buying the spell from the item's reserves.  Presumably the item only contains 1/2 the base cost in energy, since with a formula that's how much it requires to be crafted.  Once that's expended, the item is a nonmagical curio.  This would solve the problem rather neatly, as it prevents anyone from ever making a profit on a magic item, but it also implies that all magic items are impermanent.  Whether that's a bug or a feature is left for the Judge to decide.

[quote="Dave"]

Contra my take is the example of the Staff of Healing, which is right there on the treasure tables.  I think that's better treated as a singular instance, salvaged by it's much higher base cost, but I can see some GMs might disagree.

...

A less nuke-it-from-orbit solution might be that the wand-wielder has to observe the cleric's code of whatever god the wand is dedicated to, over and above any of their own, or that their own code is increased in difficulty.

[/quote]

I should fess up that although I searched the forums before posting, I didn't actually notice the staff of healing before asking.  According to Alex's post, it's priced at only 22,500 gp, which is a 10% discount for the restriction of 1/day/creature.  If it doesn't have some other rule to restrict it, you can use one to dominate the healing spell market as most people don't have enough HP to warrant many castings in the first place.

I really like the idea that if the item is a permanent tap into the god's power, that the god simply does not allow it to function for people who are not faithful worshippers.  This would, of course, include people who are trying to sell the god's energy to make a quick buck.

[quote="Alex"]

For player-created items, you could assign a limit on the total number of uses per day as well as on the frequency of use...

[/quote]

This is another great solution that curbs the abuse without feeling punitive.  If they never think to abuse magic items, then it won't even have to be brought up.

I might twist this idea to turn 1 use/(time unit) items into something like N charges that replenish at a rate of 1 charge/(larger time unit), similarly to how wands in 5th edition D&D work.  Previously high frequency items would get a larger N, although the time per charge could remain limited to prevent economic exploitation.

[quote="Aryxymaraki"]

One thing that I would probably bring over from 3E to solve this: In 3E, a magic item usable 5/day and unlimited use cost the same. So I houseruled that PCs cannot craft an item usable more than five times a day. Permanent effect unlimited use is for passive items, in my opinion.

[/quote]

This could work well too, although it makes use per day items not get any discount for being made with a more expensive effect.  As the system is now, it's more efficient to get one really expensive item rather than carry around a dozen once per day wands.  For my part, I like that more expensive items give you more bang for your buck, despite magic weapons and armor not functioning that way.  Maybe the increased efficiency is a problem in and of itself when it comes to selling the charges on the market, though.

[quote="Jard"]

if something's duration is 6 turns, then a magic item with that effect usable 1/hour is cheaper than an item with that effect on permanently.

[/quote]

This seems like a feature rather than a bug.  If a spell has a long duration, making the effect permanent seems like it would be less effort than one that lasts for a round per level.

Thanks for all the great ideas!  Lots of potential fun to be had with PCs deciding to try to exploit the gods for profit as well as fixes to keep the economy intact.

I can see passive items being self-sustaining until broken, right? Self-sustaining patterns, like a little arcane ecosystem that coincidentally happens to keep your sword very sharp. But where does al lthe juice for a Rod of Fireball come from? If it's a divine item, then I guess it's linked to a Fire God who thinks it will bring him glory and additional followers to blow stuff up every day. If it's arcane, then it's probably tethered to some kind of natural or supernatural resource (like in how Full Metal Alchemist they talk about using the energy generated by plate techtonics) that's effectively infinite. 

However, while the resource may be infinite, the infrastructure to supply it is not. Astral windmills turn silently in the endless void. Grumbling technicians carefully scrape failed ambition from the dreamcatchers. The mystic rubies that protect the whole city need to be lowered into the earth's core every two hundred years. None of these are particularly easy feats of engineering, and that's even before you bring up the question of how the natives feel about it.

Coming soon, Spells, Cults, and Mithril: The Fates of Non-human Societies....