Arcane Value: Why does it go 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 2/3?

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
Jard
Patreon SupporterDomains At War ContributorSinister Stone of Sakkara ContributorLairs And Encounters Contributor
Joined: 2012-07-11 23:23
Arcane Value: Why does it go 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 2/3?

As the topic says.

I couldn't find/remember anything explaining this, although it's probably out there, but I felt the urge to ask again.  What's the reasoning behind 1 point of arcane value giving 1/3rd instead of 1/4th and, by extension, 3 points giving 2/3rds instead of 3/4ths?

 

For those following along on the G+ ACKs community, this is an extension of me continuing to ruminate on Zaharan Ruinguards.  In my campaign I replaced Zaharans with Tieflings and they still have an active kingdom so they are somewhat more common than in the default setting.

Aryxymaraki
Aryxymaraki's picture
Patreon SupporterDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters Backer
Joined: 2014-01-04 02:20

Looking at the tables in Axioms 1, my suspicion is that it is some kind of pro-rating by usefulness.

The different base costs, since they're consistent, can be combined to form a full table of what it costs to have various spellcasting amounts; the ones that have an XP cost multiplier different than their spellcasting multiplier are 1/3 (x0.25,), 2/3 (x0.75), 4/3 (x2), and 3/2 (x4). Interestingly, 2/3 level costs the same as 3/4 level. The fact that they're all 'something thirds' outside of 3/2 makes me think that maybe it's a rounding thing as well.

(I do not have an actual answer of any kind.)

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I don't know that I had any particular reason for doing it that way. I sometimes think that the arcane values 1 to 3 are too weak, honestly.

 

Loswaith
Joined: 2017-05-12 02:19

Would it have been due to reverse engineering classes to fit the xp values, of the B/X sytems and suplements?  Im not overly familiar with classes from pre BECMI.

K-Slacker
K-Slacker's picture
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion BackerDwimmermount BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara ContributorLairs And Encounters Contributor
Joined: 2013-02-23 21:32

I agree that the Arcane 1/2/3 progressions are underpowered. In my Astonishing ACKS campaign I tweaked the spell progressions and reduced their XP requirements.

I wrote a post about it here: Arcane Spell Progressions

Aryxymaraki
Aryxymaraki's picture
Patreon SupporterDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters Backer
Joined: 2014-01-04 02:20

I might actually have a possible solution to this inspired by the HFH tables. I wonder what would happen if we took the arcane spell point progression for non-4 values of arcane and then converted it back into spells per day following a progression similar to what we would see with actual levels. This includes an accounting for level progression and expected power level of character by making it a weighted average of all spell progression instead of strictly 'what a mage of X% level would have'.

I'll work up some tables on it at some point.

Jard
Patreon SupporterDomains At War ContributorSinister Stone of Sakkara ContributorLairs And Encounters Contributor
Joined: 2012-07-11 23:23

I might actually have a possible solution to this inspired by the HFH tables. I wonder what would happen if we took the arcane spell point progression for non-4 values of arcane and then converted it back into spells per day following a progression similar to what we would see with actual levels. This includes an accounting for level progression and expected power level of character by making it a weighted average of all spell progression instead of strictly 'what a mage of X% level would have'. I'll work up some tables on it at some point.

-Aryxymaraki

oooo! I'm excited to see what you cook up.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

 

I might actually have a possible solution to this inspired by the HFH tables. I wonder what would happen if we took the arcane spell point progression for non-4 values of arcane and then converted it back into spells per day following a progression similar to what we would see with actual levels. This includes an accounting for level progression and expected power level of character by making it a weighted average of all spell progression instead of strictly 'what a mage of X% level would have'. I'll work up some tables on it at some point.


-Aryxymaraki

 

oooo! I'm excited to see what you cook up.


-Jard

Same here!

 

Aryxymaraki
Aryxymaraki's picture
Patreon SupporterDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters Backer
Joined: 2014-01-04 02:20

The first thing I noticed was that at some point Alex changed the tables to be consistent with the spell progression of these points instead of being multiplied percentages of full based on their spellcasting percentage >.>

But that's what I did to create these tables, which are preliminary (obviously, given how long they took >.>) but should serve as a proof of concept. In all cases, they're definitely stronger than the existing spell progressions for these values, but should also be still definitely weaker than Arcane4. Arcane1 gets a single fifth-level spell at 14th level; Arcane2 gets their first 5th level spell at 12, but never makes it to 6th; and Arcane3 gets a single sixth level spell when they reach 14th level.

I can't post tables here so here's a link!

http://aryxymaraki.pbworks.com/w/page/121906002/Alternate%20Progression%...

(Determining their effective spellcaster level is much more complicated. I think 'twice the level of the highest-level spell they can cast' is a reasonable approximation, but has a few weird points, so it only works as an approximation.)

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

The first thing I noticed was that at some point Alex changed the tables to be consistent with the spell progression of these points instead of being multiplied percentages of full based on their spellcasting percentage >.> But that's what I did to create these tables, which are preliminary (obviously, given how long they took >.>) but should serve as a proof of concept. In all cases, they're definitely stronger than the existing spell progressions for these values, but should also be still definitely weaker than Arcane4. Arcane1 gets a single fifth-level spell at 14th level; Arcane2 gets their first 5th level spell at 12, but never makes it to 6th; and Arcane3 gets a single sixth level spell when they reach 14th level. I can't post tables here so here's a link! http://aryxymaraki.pbworks.com/w/page/121906002/Alternate%20Progression%... (Determining their effective spellcaster level is much more complicated. I think 'twice the level of the highest-level spell they can cast' is a reasonable approximation, but has a few weird points, so it only works as an approximation.)

-Aryxymaraki

These are awesome. Can we publish them as an AXIOMS article? Along with updated spell point tables. 

Aryxymaraki
Aryxymaraki's picture
Patreon SupporterDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters Backer
Joined: 2014-01-04 02:20

The first thing I noticed was that at some point Alex changed the tables to be consistent with the spell progression of these points instead of being multiplied percentages of full based on their spellcasting percentage >.> But that's what I did to create these tables, which are preliminary (obviously, given how long they took >.>) but should serve as a proof of concept. In all cases, they're definitely stronger than the existing spell progressions for these values, but should also be still definitely weaker than Arcane4. Arcane1 gets a single fifth-level spell at 14th level; Arcane2 gets their first 5th level spell at 12, but never makes it to 6th; and Arcane3 gets a single sixth level spell when they reach 14th level. I can't post tables here so here's a link! http://aryxymaraki.pbworks.com/w/page/121906002/Alternate%20Progression%... (Determining their effective spellcaster level is much more complicated. I think 'twice the level of the highest-level spell they can cast' is a reasonable approximation, but has a few weird points, so it only works as an approximation.)

-Aryxymaraki

These are awesome. Can we publish them as an AXIOMS article? Along with updated spell point tables. 


-Alex

Of course!

I will try to polish the tables a bit more, maybe figure out the caster level conondrum and send it to you.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I haven't tested to see if this works at all times:

(the highest level spell you can cast x 2) + (number of spells of that level -1) -1

 

Fabio Milito Pa...
Patreon SupporterAdventurer Conqueror King BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters Backer
Joined: 2011-07-10 16:06

this is wonderfull :)