Land and Lordship

koewn's picture

Christmas in July for the Patreon? Pace yourself, have a sandwich, you're nothing but skin and bones and rules.

 

Tyros is paying 6,000gp tribute to someone. Is that going to the governor/entity above Ambador, who Ambador also pays the 600gp urban tribute to? If Ambador owns lands outside the domain he governs, then, he's governed by that governor/entity?

If there is a governor above Ambador, then there's governors below, responsible for the subvassals, paying Ambador the subvassal tribute? And when urban settlements develop in these subvassals, they begin to pay Ambador the urban tribute? 

If that's the case, then, Ambador manages a number of governors the same as he would regular vassals? Are these "subvassals" of the bureaucratic side only - does Tyros have any connection to the sub-landowners, or are these fully Ambador's "vassals", with all the implications thereof? Favors, duties, henchmanry (and nonhenchman vassal rules), etc?

And as such these are defined as subvassals, rather than just a giant mess of multiple landowners, because of the size of the domain Ambador can directly manage? 

If he's just a landowner, then, Tyros' level does not come into play for how much land he can own? If Tyros held more land than an available governor can handle, his lands would be split into multiple governed domains, and revenue split accordingly.

And, theoretically, if he has the power granted to him for other reasons, a landowner could appoint their own governors of their lands.

Which implies a PC can acquire as much property as possible, develop a bureaucratic tree of henchmen/subhenchmen - then govern his own domain for the XP, gain the tribute income from the bureaucracy, and the land revenue from the whole deal?

Or all of this is fevered speculation :)

Tyros is paying 6,000gp tribute to someone. Is that going to the governor/entity above Ambador, who Ambador also pays the 600gp urban tribute to? If Ambador owns lands outside the domain he governs, then, he's governed by that governor/entity?


-koewn

Yes, Tyros would pay tribute to the governor above Ambador. In the game world, what is likely happening is that Tyros is paying 6,000gp to Ambador, and Ambador is then pooling that with the 600gp he collected and paying 6,600gp total to the over-governor, but mechanically speaking it's easiest to just allocate the cost to Tyros.

If there is a governor above Ambador, then there's governors below, responsible for the subvassals, paying Ambador the subvassal tribute? And when urban settlements develop in these subvassals, they begin to pay Ambador the urban tribute?  

-koewn

Yes.

 If that's the case, then, Ambador manages a number of governors the same as he would regular vassals? Are these "subvassals" of the bureaucratic side only - does Tyros have any connection to the sub-landowners, or are these fully Ambador's "vassals", with all the implications thereof? Favors, duties, henchmanry (and nonhenchman vassal rules), etc?

-koewn

Yes, Ambador manages governors as he would regular vassals. They are subvassals on the bureacratic side only. Tyros does not have any particular connection to the sub-landowners. 

  And as such these are defined as subvassals, rather than just a giant mess of multiple landowners, because of the size of the domain Ambador can directly manage?

-koewn

Yes.

 If he's just a landowner, then, Tyros' level does not come into play for how much land he can own? If Tyros held more land than an available governor can handle, his lands would be split into multiple governed domains, and revenue split accordingly.

-koewn

That's correct. It's entirely possible to hold land supervised by different governors. Tyros might own land in Southern Argolle and Opelenea.

 And, theoretically, if he has the power granted to him for other reasons, a landowner could appoint their own governors of their lands.

-koewn

That is likely the case for timocratic or oligarchic governments, sure.

 Which implies a PC can acquire as much property as possible, develop a bureaucratic tree of henchmen/subhenchmen - then govern his own domain for the XP, gain the tribute income from the bureaucracy, and the land revenue from the whole deal?

-koewn

Yes, that is certainly possible. But keep in mind the points that I made in the designer's notes. *IF* governors are not themselves land owners elsewhere, then they are going to be underpaid relative to their responsibilities. In the situation you've described, the governors below the PC are going to be agitating to be made landed lords. 

Interestingly enough, I actually had written some "henchmen expectation rules" that handled the issue of how a henchman responds when he's given a domain that's underwhelming for him, but I hadn't posted them yet. Clearly I need to!

 

 

That is likely the case for timocratic or oligarchic governments, sure.

-Alex

OK, so I had to look that one up :)

 

Thanks! I don't see any issue, then, mixing types - say, a colonial governor is the feudal vassal of a remote king, who has feudal relationships with other vassals. That's most excellent.

Also; I'm seeing a neat way to run something like a militant order that runs around liberating land from beastmen/pagans - everybody gets a split of the land, the mid level folks get to also be governors and also eventually members of a "senate" that is the managing council of the order - and the order as a body puts in the investments to attract the settlers they require. Damn near a farm system for leveling recruits.

It'd be an interesting way to develop something like the Teutonic Order, which kinda strikes me as a mess of high-level adventurers gone wild, eventually being put down by more conservative powers.

 

I think that would work, yes!

I just had an epiphany.  I don't know about you guys, but my players so rarely are willing to go on quests on behalf of someone else unless they're giving out absurd rewards.  What if desperate governors/lesser nobles, instead of somehow pulling thousands of GP out of thin air, instead offered players rights to the land overrun with monsters they want cleared out? The players get a foothold in the land ownership/domain game, as well as a huge influx of capital, albeit one that will take a very long time to pay off.  The lord/governor, meanwhile, gets rid of monsters who were likely raiding more than just that land, and only sees a partial decline in income since they'll no longer be responsible for tribute on those families.

Absolutely!

Ayep. I'd wager the whole stronghold/garrison deal might be daunting for low level parties, or their players, but the lure of increasing income from something they already have by coming back around to take over from that governor would certainly end up entertaining.

Sometime in the early-mid 3E days, I'd given out some parcels of land with a little hamlet as a reward to the party...maybe around 10th level, I think, so 7th level if a direct ratio conversion. Was trying to do something novel, essentially.

It would have went 1000% better had I had ACKS already; so, shame on me for not having some sort of reverse-Terminator to go forward in time and grab Alex.

"Come with me if you want to game!"

 

Oh! Just thought of something!

Alex!: ACKS pg 125 mentions "good civlized land" costing 50gp/acre.

In theory, these rules break out the "investment income" on owning land into it's own value, seperate from the "administration/maintenance" of it.

I'd do some initial math, but this is kinda  a drive-by post - one could use the secret ratio and such as done in some thread on investments elsewhere to estimate an outright sales price for any bit of land with some land value, yes?

Yes, I think you could! Though I have not done so.

50gp/acre of land * 960 acres in 1.5 square miles = 48,000gp

1.5 square miles of civilization can hold 50 families.

The landowner collects 3-9gp in land revenue and 4gp in services, but pays only liturgy (1gp) tithes (1gp) and tribute (3gp).

Thus the landowner earns 2-8gp per family, or 100-400gp per 1.5 square mile civilized hex.

If the golden ratio of 3% ROI is assumed, a 48,000gp investment should be paying back 1440gp/month, so land ownership in an established, civilized domain falls a bit short.

But, if we assume that a ratio is at least somewhat consistent, 100-400gp is between 0.2% and 0.8%, or the cost is somewhere between 120 and 480 times the income generated.  Now that I think about it, for the landowner, not having to pay garrison costs, the profit mostly depends on number of families, so if a civilized 1.5 miles can hold 50 families and a borderlands hex can hold 15 families, one would assume it's 15gp/acre, and a wilderness hex at 8 families would be 8gp/acre.