Monster saves after level 14 - what does F20 mean?

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Wookie
Joined: 2020-02-14 06:14
Monster saves after level 14 - what does F20 mean?

Hi all

Monsters use the same Saving Throws as PCs, that's fine, but some of the nomenclature confuses me.
Specifically, any entry where the level given is above 14 - the classes don't go above 14, so what does this mean?

One of the reasons I'm asking is I was taking an extended dive into the After the Flesh ability for Zaharans and R4 Thrassians - once they become undead, what happens to their Saves? Given that HD is unlimited, do their Saves keep improving, similar to Attack Throw or do they cap at 14, like other class abilities?

This also affects creatures like dragons. Old dragons have Saves F14, Venerable dragons have Saves F20. When talking about characters with classes, F14 means something, F20 doesn't - the table doesn't go above 14. So does this mean that Venerable dragons have the same Saves as Old dragons?

I've looked in the ACKS Rulebook, Players Companion and Lairs & Encounters without finding anything to explain it - I'm not saying it's not there, I'm saying that so far I haven't found it, despite my best efforts to date.
I'm nearly ready to introduce my group to ACKS, I've got my campaign 95% ready to go - but in my previous experience as a player and DM, it's the small stuff that trips you up hardest and I'd like to be ready for the eventuality before my players pick a fight with a critter with Saves this good.

Wookie
P.S. I'm looking at using competing Zaharan and Thrassian realms (both of large-ish size) as antagonists; it's entirely believable that the Mummy Emperor for either or both has ~20HD...

Magus7a
Joined: 2017-01-20 08:13

Hey Wookie, looking at the table, and I know it's been explicitly said somewhere else on these forums.  Fighter saves improve by 2 points every three levels, which means creatures that save at F20 have across the board saves that are 4 points better in each save than creatures that save at F14.

not an autarch though, and can't find the source at the moment.

GMJoe
Barbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2013-01-04 12:56

The table of fighter saving throws on page 108 contains a "14+" row, which I've been assuming means that saving throws don't improve beyond that level.

If saving throws did improve beyond level 14, a 20 HD creature would have a Poison & Death saving throw of 1+, at which point calling it a throw starts to get a bit silly.

Magus7a
Joined: 2017-01-20 08:13

Found the threads you need Wookie, the Dragon Saving throw and Zaharan race threads are the ones that have the answers to the questions asked here, the short answer is that they scale as the monsters they were supposed to be, and while class features don't scale, attacks and saves do.  If there is a more recent opinion on this topic from the Autarch, my opinion is moot, but from the prior statements given, your 20HD Mummy Lords should have saves four points better than 14th level fighters.  Those two threads should display the Autarch's intent, but if rules as written say otherwise, that's your call to make.

But again, not the autarch

Wookie
Joined: 2020-02-14 06:14

Thanks for that - I'll check them out. It sounds like the answer I was looking for