Thought experiment - Radical hACKS

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

[quote="Thevampman24"]

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

[/quote]

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

[quote="golan2072"]

 

 

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

 


-Thevampman24

 

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

[/quote]

Because from my understanding Gygax was not afraid of a player grinder "Tomb of Horrors and kinda Parodied with Castle Greyhawk" and add on that Orginal D&D and AD&D didn't pull any punches and I know this due to the number of Characters I have lost to random weasel encounters. That was my only reference and reasoning to the world of hurt comment. I didn't state my thoughts better probably because I just got done with work.

I meant no insult to your hypothetical book since it sounds like a blast and makes me kinda want to start a Deadlands ACKs conversion.

It's interesting how it gives off a certain flavour, but under the hood can be forgiving. It alows it to have a bit of risk in it, if you read some of the early DMG stuff from Gygax he definitely liked a bit of risk for reward, not to easy not too hard.

Ok, classes, I see 5. I almost never see people playing the thief, I think it's my players. So thief or freebooter :) or something like that that is a bit different. 

On that note, Gladiator? Of lizardman hunter or lizardman warrior? If you have 5 gladiator is a bit niche.

Finally, those choose classes, like freebooter. I'm not sure if they are Alex or a backer in terms of who likes them, they are interesting.  Do you think classes with choices would make this seem deeper in choice? I must admit I often don't use them, but I use 9 or more classes to set the setting.

[quote="Thevampman24"]

 

 

 

 

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

 

 

 
-Thevampman24

 

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

 

 

 
-golan2072

 

 

Because from my understanding Gygax was not afraid of a player grinder "Tomb of Horrors and kinda Parodied with Castle Greyhawk" and add on that Orginal D&D and AD&D didn't pull any punches and I know this due to the number of Characters I have lost to random weasel encounters. That was my only reference and reasoning to the world of hurt comment. I didn't state my thoughts better probably because I just got done with work.
 
I meant no insult to your hypothetical book since it sounds like a blast and makes me kinda want to start a Deadlands ACKs conversion.

[/quote]

No insult taken :-) And thank you for your kind words.

And in this case, there would be an optional rule to avoid fate points for hardcore "Iron Man" play... In this case - no RL&L (except for rare magic items and Judge fiat) and mortal wounds are nasty.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] It's interesting how it gives off a certain flavour, but under the hood can be forgiving. It alows it to have a bit of risk in it, if you read some of the early DMG stuff from Gygax he definitely liked a bit of risk for reward, not to easy not too hard. [/quote]

Exactly.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] Ok, classes, I see 5. I almost never see people playing the thief, I think it's my players. So thief or freebooter :) or something like that that is a bit different. [/quote]

Maybe create a hybrid of freebooter and thief and call it a "rogue"? A more martial thief, somewhat slower advancement.

However, with rebalanced thief skills, low level thieves may be more viable as player options.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] On that note, Gladiator? Of lizardman hunter or lizardman warrior? If you have 5 gladiator is a bit niche. [/quote]

I'd just call it a "lizardman (no second descriptive)", drop the infravision, and call it a day. Monster lizardmen would be nerfed to HD 1+1, but their bosses would be higher level classed lizardmen. The same goes with the "antediluvian" - no second descriptive, just "antediluvian" (and use an Eldritch variant of the Zaharan ruinguard).

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] Finally, those choose classes, like freebooter. I'm not sure if they are Alex or a backer in terms of who likes them, they are interesting.  Do you think classes with choices would make this seem deeper in choice? I must admit I often don't use them, but I use 9 or more classes to set the setting. [/quote]

These would be beyond thr scope of such a book (Radical hACKS). Regarding more classes - I was trying to choose the most iconic ones, which are fighter, thief, and sorcerer for teh human classes. Do you think an assassin, a barbarian, an explorer, and a martial (non-spellcasting) bladedancer would be distinct enough for such a scope? I find it somewhat difficult to justify this.

Balancing Options for thieves

  • In my campaign all theiving abilities (other than climb walls) are = to 15-lvl for a range of 14+ at 1st level to 1+ at 14th level.  I do not allow Dex bonuses because I want PCs with low/average scores to be more playable.  If a thief buys special equipment (e.g. masterwork thieves tools), I then allow Dex bonues
  • Have all thieving abilities start at 12-lvl/2 rounded up.  A first level thief has a 50/50 chance (11+) up to a 13th level thief with an 80% chance of success.  If you use dex bonuses, a 1st level thief w/ 18 dex would have a 65% chance of success and a 13th level thief would have a 95% chance.  If you add specific proficiences for extra skill (say +2 or +4 to the roll), and equipment or strategies that increase the chances, even low level thieves would be effective.

increased theiving skills would make a big change in the campaign world.  PCs would have to guard against low level pickpickets where ever they go, with even low level thieves  having a decent chance of success against low to mid level PCs.  

I have also struggled in how to make my thieves more combat bsaed (in line with the Grey Mouser).  The freebooter (from the HFH) looks cool, but I haven't playtested it yet.  An option to make thieves more effective in combat is is to allow them (but not assassins) to muliply damage bonuses as well as die rolls on backstabs, or allow them to 'backstab' engaged opponents.  I'm not sure how that will 'feel' though. In 5E it leads to mechanical hex based strategic combat rather than a narrative strategic feel within the game fiction.

Jojodogboy, I love these ideas! Especially the second one Slow advancement, but you can buy specific advancement with proficienxcies, and (rare) high DEX will make you an even better thief.

Saving this as my "official" house rule in any ACKS game!

I'll have to check the freebooter. In any case, potentially reducing the number of thief skills in favor of a bigger hit die is a possibility.

Yeah,  nice thief rules Jojodogboy :) It's interesting how we all have house rules for thief's. 

The freebooter does tend to be suffering the that same problem in that it sticks with the d4 hit dice. But then d6 costs a lot and only really gives you an extra point. Hit Points are a precious commodity I suppose. Lower hit points coupled with low armor tends to make people cautious about being 'in the front line', which is almost a requirement for the backstabs.

I actually don't like the assassin or barbarian for some reason... I think barbarian is because it's a cultural thing and has really just become a berserker in modern D&D. Having read some Conan I'm in the 'Conan was a thief' club just with 18 CON to get those hit points.

Which is an interesting point, if your a thief with good CON you can afford to melee more. Acrobatics can trigger your Backstab without much effort too. If you went to d6 hit points you gain 300 XP and loose four powers, is it worth it, maybe not. If you after a simple, get strait into it, maybe just leave it as is.

But then another counter argument (I'm crossing me streams today) is that with a level cap of 8 the thief gets there too fast... So some extra XP Vs a hard cap might not hurt. I am absolutely certain d6 thief's have been done, will check the forum and blog histories :) (mines a nobiran, not human, so won't post that).

The problem is that unlike D&D 3E/5E, ranged backstabs cost another proficiency. I might want to reduce the thief's weapon selection to auto-include Sniping in its design, which may be appropriate.

You can simulate a D&D-type "barbarian" by having your fighter take berserkergang (for the rage) and swashbuckling (for the unarmored AC). The Companion totem and culture rules are beyond the scope of what I'm envisioning here.

The assassin, on the other hand, is a "sneaky fighter" with better HD than a thief and less than that of a fighter. Interesting, but, again, I'm not sure if it fits the scope here.

I combined Hide in Shadows and Move Silently into Stealth, which gives Thief classes and extra open proficiency slot which they can use to help customize however they’d like.

You could add a proficiency for Thief-type classes only called “Thug” or “Resilient “ or something that gives them +1 hit point per level. That would address the d4 hp issue somewhat for more ruffian-type thieves without having to redesign the classes and also let you control which thief classes get the potential hit point bump.

 

[quote="moorcrys"] I combined Hide in Shadows and Move Silently into Stealth, which gives Thief classes and extra open proficiency slot which they can use to help customize however they’d like.

You could add a proficiency for Thief-type classes only called “Thug” or “Resilient “ or something that gives them +1 hit point per level. That would address the d4 hp issue somewhat for more ruffian-type thieves without having to redesign the classes and also let you control which thief classes get the potential hit point bump. [/quote]

An interesting idea!

I agree with all the class things you said, and that’s my view of the berserker in normal play too, proficiencies are so good for flavour.

So, does it come with an intro adventure? I think it may need it to be self contained. Also to set the scene.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] I agree with all the class things you said, and that’s my view of the berserker in normal play too, proficiencies are so good for flavour.

So, does it come with an intro adventure? I think it may need it to be self contained. Also to set the scene. [/quote]

An intro adventure would be cool; a ghoul cult in a village? Toadmen raids?

Ghouls set an undead theme early, and people will be looking for the cleric which won’t be there. Needs to be toadmen based off that survey. But maybe a third party or other aspect. I’m trying to think about good intro adventures I have seen. That are short, the page budget would be tight.

A micro-sandbox might work; a small swamp? jungle? desert? (say, 8x8 6-mile hexes), a few NPCs with agendas, and a few (2-3?) one-page dungeons.

Actually that’s a little different and cool, a little like that micro setting you blogged about a year or so ago. Just a little bigger. You could throw a mix of key elements or themes into play that way and the players get a little choice out of the gate. I started my own game with a mini map based on your blog and found it worked really well, before I revealed the full 6mile hex map.

You could do a few mini dungeons without maps (1 page), just describing the lair ala L&E. Have a few one pagers, then maybe.a two pager. (6pages)

A few pages for map and history, and another few for politics and agendas.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] Actually that’s a little different and cool, a little like that micro setting you blogged about a year or so ago. Just a little bigger. You could throw a mix of key elements or themes into play that way and the players get a little choice out of the gate. I started my own game with a mini map based on your blog and found it worked really well, before I revealed the full 6mile hex map. [/quote]

Which of my settings - the Isenvale March?

 

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] You could do a few mini dungeons without maps (1 page), just describing the lair ala L&E. Have a few one pagers, then maybe.a two pager. (6pages)

A few pages for map and history, and another few for politics and agendas. [/quote]

Yes, start with a sandbox. Something small, yet allowing player's choice. Something at least slightly gonzo. A jungle/swamp is preferrable to a desert, IMHO, as this will allow the lizardman to use his aquatic abilities.

A town (preferrably with a sorcerous tyrant) and its surrounding swampy-jungle environs. 4x small one-page dungeons, 1x two-page dungeon. Gazetteer. A few prominent NPCs with agendas. Random encounter table. Rumor table.

My thoughts of the micro-sandbox (Jungle of Zurn):

Factions:

1. Tyrant of Rarkh (the local town-state); wants to keep himself in power and thus get rid of the Bandit Queen. Chaotic.

2. Bandit Queen; popular heroine, the Tyrant's own sister (not a well-known fact). Wants to depose the Tyrant and rule Rarkh in his place. Lawful.

3. Brotherhood of Hands; Rarkh's criminal syndicate. Have a love-hate relationship with both the Tyrant and the Bandit Queen. Would like a ruler who will turn a blind eye to their hijinks. Neutral.

4. Cult of the Deep God; a powerful (6 HD? 8 HD?) creature (aboleth? sentient spellcasting octopus?) living in the local lake and its cult of sorcerers. Can teach sorcerers spells and help with making potions/scrolls (i.e. magical research). Demands sacrifices. Chaotic. Tolerated by the Tyrant; will be in trouble if the Bandit Queen takes power.

5. The Frog King; a massive frogling who rules the swamps. Allied with the Cult; in a cold war with both the Tyrant (over access to slaves and resources) and the Bandit Queen (who sees him as a Chaotic threat). Chaotic.

Monsters:

Spiders, giant geckos, snakes in the jungle; potentially a famous man-eating tiger (tough encounter for low-level characters). Toads, frogs, snakes, crocodiles, and froglings in the swamp, potentially a lair of ghouls (?) or a necromancer with zombies. Dangerous fish, octopi, and the Deep God in the lake; potentially lake-pirates? ARRRRRRRR.

Settlements:

Rarkh, a "city" (large town - makes the area "borderlands"). Ruled by the Tyrant.

Zabreba, a small fishing village across the lake from Rarkh. Weak village chief; pays tribute to the Deep God out of fear.

Zagadur, a rice farming village on the swamps. Village chief appointed by the Tyrant as this is Rurkh's ricebowl.

Frogling village (Chaotic monster camp).

Bandit Queen's hidden camp (deep in the jungles).

How would the introduction to such game look like? Search no further!

---

Barbarians! Civilized men huddle behind tall stone walls, trembling at the thought. The soldiers of civilization tighten their shield walls against the oncoming onslaught. And then they come. Savage men and women, screaming at the top of their lungs, oblivious to fear, frothing at the mouth from rage and lust for war. Wave after wave, they storm shields and fortifications. Many die; the pagan gods bless their souls. But eventually, mail and castle will fail. Then, the flames of barbarism will sweep the land, leaving no stone unturned.

Or so think the civilized men. But beyond this nightmare – the shared nightmare of cultured folk – the reality is not as simple. Proud barbarian tribes plow the harsh land and hunt for deadly game beyond the domains of kings and emperors. Their warriors are plenty; of them, many are raiders and plunderers. But other barbarians are merchants trading with civilization; guides and hunters in far-flung provinces, and, ultimately – mercenaries to bolster the ranks of legions crumbling under the heel of decadent rulers.

Sooner or later, such soldiers of fortune – or, indeed, some of their merchant and wanderer kinfolk – will see the rotten heart of civilization for what it is. Opulence and corruption, avarice and greed. Noblemen who send others to kill and be killed to fulfill their whims. Merchants who could sell their own mother for profit. Crime seeping through every crack in moribund empires. Many will become jaded and disillusioned, seeing that the light of civilization is as dark and cold as the steppes and forests they call home. Others will see an opportunity.

For sometimes, what a rotten kingdom needs are a barbarian boot to kick it, smash its scheming nobles, lay low its selfish emperors, bring freedom – or, indeed, new slave-masters – to the townspeople and peasants.

Sword and sorcery tales speak of cunning thieves, power-hungry sorcerers, and, indeed, barbaric warriors. This game – Barbaric! – lets you play such heroes. Or, more often, anti-heroes. Pit your sword-arm and knowledge of eldritch secrets against ravaging bandits, scheming nobles, diabolic demons, mighty dragons – and, ultimately, the rotten and ugly face of moribund civilization itself.

These rules are, by themselves, an act of barbarism. This is not a finely crafted ruleset, elegantly spun from existing and new material. It is sharp and blunt at the same time, savage and bleeding, sometimes proudly crude. Its writing was not a work of careful sculpture – it was, and still is, an act of butchery. The author took a big axe, then savagely hacked at several existing rulsets, sending blood and guts flying, to create such a savage game.

So, pour your beer, devour your pizza, turn up the volume of your favorite heavy metal album – and prepare to become… Barbaric!