Thought experiment - Radical hACKS

Having 8 as the cutoff seems reasonable.

As to the missing RL&L, there's a couple things to keep in mind.  First, you can have it be a rare magic item/service and simply provide the cost, hand waiving it and saying that you must find high level sorcerer or a rare ancient scroll to do it.

Second, as others have pointed out, if you include at least a few fate points, that is going to do the majority of the heavy lifting of RL&L. since you can use it to essentially avoid most rolls on the mortal wounds table.

Yes, fate points will be very useful in such a ruleset, and thematic as well.

In which case... Might i suggest the following, this is the house rule i use in my games.

Starting Allocation of Fate Points: Characters begin with one or more Fate Points based on their net ability bonuses/penalties. The player should record his character’s allocation of Fate Points on his character sheet. To determine this add up all the ability bonuses/penalties numbers for the character and consult the table below.

Net ability
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">bonus/penalty</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Fates</span></div>

		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">decision</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Fate</span></div>

		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">points</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">-3 or fewer</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">10</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">-2</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Chosen of the Gods</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">9</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">-1</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#808080; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">8</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">0</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">7</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+1</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Fortune Favors the Bold</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">6</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+2</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#a6a6a6; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">5</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+3</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">4</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+4</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Fate is Fickle</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">3</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+5</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div>&nbsp;</div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#bfbfbf; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">2</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td style="background-color:#d9d9d9; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">+6 or more</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#d9d9d9; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Uncaring Fate</span></div>
		</td>
		<td style="background-color:#d9d9d9; vertical-align:middle">
		<div><span style="background-color:transparent; color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">1</span></div>
		</td>
	</tr>
</tbody>

So, I do this along with roll 5 and 3d6 as they fall (and tradoff 2 for 1 prime). Its intented to throw another choice into the mix. I got a bit sick of seeing "for the game to be heroic you must have high attributtes". The problem with this is it removes some of the fun of playing characters with a range of attributtes.

Under this system i have seen players make choices that they would not have otherwise made. eg. Sorcerers who go for high INT only, trading down other attributtes for fate points so they can get the extra spells fate points alow. I give a bit more than normal, but have them only recover once a week, forcing choice. 

Players with good attributtes get less, but hey, they have good attributtes. You can play a relatively normal character - with 9 across the board, and recieve 7 fate points, giving your character a unique flavour compared to other characters with attributes of 16 that have 4 or less. I then only alow one fate point per proficiency.
 
 
 

I love this! Goes well with the "3d6 x6 in order" OSR generation method.

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

[quote="Thevampman24"]

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

[/quote]

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

[quote="golan2072"]

 

 

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

 


-Thevampman24

 

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

[/quote]

Because from my understanding Gygax was not afraid of a player grinder "Tomb of Horrors and kinda Parodied with Castle Greyhawk" and add on that Orginal D&D and AD&D didn't pull any punches and I know this due to the number of Characters I have lost to random weasel encounters. That was my only reference and reasoning to the world of hurt comment. I didn't state my thoughts better probably because I just got done with work.

I meant no insult to your hypothetical book since it sounds like a blast and makes me kinda want to start a Deadlands ACKs conversion.

It's interesting how it gives off a certain flavour, but under the hood can be forgiving. It alows it to have a bit of risk in it, if you read some of the early DMG stuff from Gygax he definitely liked a bit of risk for reward, not to easy not too hard.

Ok, classes, I see 5. I almost never see people playing the thief, I think it's my players. So thief or freebooter :) or something like that that is a bit different. 

On that note, Gladiator? Of lizardman hunter or lizardman warrior? If you have 5 gladiator is a bit niche.

Finally, those choose classes, like freebooter. I'm not sure if they are Alex or a backer in terms of who likes them, they are interesting.  Do you think classes with choices would make this seem deeper in choice? I must admit I often don't use them, but I use 9 or more classes to set the setting.

[quote="Thevampman24"]

 

 

 

 

The TSR vibe is real. More specifically Mr. Gygax laughing at the world of hurt you don't even know you entered.

 

 

 
-Thevampman24

 

You mean, the B/X split approach? Why is it a "World of hurt"?

 

 

 
-golan2072

 

 

Because from my understanding Gygax was not afraid of a player grinder "Tomb of Horrors and kinda Parodied with Castle Greyhawk" and add on that Orginal D&D and AD&D didn't pull any punches and I know this due to the number of Characters I have lost to random weasel encounters. That was my only reference and reasoning to the world of hurt comment. I didn't state my thoughts better probably because I just got done with work.
 
I meant no insult to your hypothetical book since it sounds like a blast and makes me kinda want to start a Deadlands ACKs conversion.

[/quote]

No insult taken :-) And thank you for your kind words.

And in this case, there would be an optional rule to avoid fate points for hardcore "Iron Man" play... In this case - no RL&L (except for rare magic items and Judge fiat) and mortal wounds are nasty.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] It's interesting how it gives off a certain flavour, but under the hood can be forgiving. It alows it to have a bit of risk in it, if you read some of the early DMG stuff from Gygax he definitely liked a bit of risk for reward, not to easy not too hard. [/quote]

Exactly.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] Ok, classes, I see 5. I almost never see people playing the thief, I think it's my players. So thief or freebooter :) or something like that that is a bit different. [/quote]

Maybe create a hybrid of freebooter and thief and call it a "rogue"? A more martial thief, somewhat slower advancement.

However, with rebalanced thief skills, low level thieves may be more viable as player options.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] On that note, Gladiator? Of lizardman hunter or lizardman warrior? If you have 5 gladiator is a bit niche. [/quote]

I'd just call it a "lizardman (no second descriptive)", drop the infravision, and call it a day. Monster lizardmen would be nerfed to HD 1+1, but their bosses would be higher level classed lizardmen. The same goes with the "antediluvian" - no second descriptive, just "antediluvian" (and use an Eldritch variant of the Zaharan ruinguard).

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] Finally, those choose classes, like freebooter. I'm not sure if they are Alex or a backer in terms of who likes them, they are interesting.  Do you think classes with choices would make this seem deeper in choice? I must admit I often don't use them, but I use 9 or more classes to set the setting. [/quote]

These would be beyond thr scope of such a book (Radical hACKS). Regarding more classes - I was trying to choose the most iconic ones, which are fighter, thief, and sorcerer for teh human classes. Do you think an assassin, a barbarian, an explorer, and a martial (non-spellcasting) bladedancer would be distinct enough for such a scope? I find it somewhat difficult to justify this.

Balancing Options for thieves

  • In my campaign all theiving abilities (other than climb walls) are = to 15-lvl for a range of 14+ at 1st level to 1+ at 14th level.  I do not allow Dex bonuses because I want PCs with low/average scores to be more playable.  If a thief buys special equipment (e.g. masterwork thieves tools), I then allow Dex bonues
  • Have all thieving abilities start at 12-lvl/2 rounded up.  A first level thief has a 50/50 chance (11+) up to a 13th level thief with an 80% chance of success.  If you use dex bonuses, a 1st level thief w/ 18 dex would have a 65% chance of success and a 13th level thief would have a 95% chance.  If you add specific proficiences for extra skill (say +2 or +4 to the roll), and equipment or strategies that increase the chances, even low level thieves would be effective.

increased theiving skills would make a big change in the campaign world.  PCs would have to guard against low level pickpickets where ever they go, with even low level thieves  having a decent chance of success against low to mid level PCs.  

I have also struggled in how to make my thieves more combat bsaed (in line with the Grey Mouser).  The freebooter (from the HFH) looks cool, but I haven't playtested it yet.  An option to make thieves more effective in combat is is to allow them (but not assassins) to muliply damage bonuses as well as die rolls on backstabs, or allow them to 'backstab' engaged opponents.  I'm not sure how that will 'feel' though. In 5E it leads to mechanical hex based strategic combat rather than a narrative strategic feel within the game fiction.

Jojodogboy, I love these ideas! Especially the second one Slow advancement, but you can buy specific advancement with proficienxcies, and (rare) high DEX will make you an even better thief.

Saving this as my "official" house rule in any ACKS game!

I'll have to check the freebooter. In any case, potentially reducing the number of thief skills in favor of a bigger hit die is a possibility.

Yeah,  nice thief rules Jojodogboy :) It's interesting how we all have house rules for thief's. 

The freebooter does tend to be suffering the that same problem in that it sticks with the d4 hit dice. But then d6 costs a lot and only really gives you an extra point. Hit Points are a precious commodity I suppose. Lower hit points coupled with low armor tends to make people cautious about being 'in the front line', which is almost a requirement for the backstabs.

I actually don't like the assassin or barbarian for some reason... I think barbarian is because it's a cultural thing and has really just become a berserker in modern D&D. Having read some Conan I'm in the 'Conan was a thief' club just with 18 CON to get those hit points.

Which is an interesting point, if your a thief with good CON you can afford to melee more. Acrobatics can trigger your Backstab without much effort too. If you went to d6 hit points you gain 300 XP and loose four powers, is it worth it, maybe not. If you after a simple, get strait into it, maybe just leave it as is.

But then another counter argument (I'm crossing me streams today) is that with a level cap of 8 the thief gets there too fast... So some extra XP Vs a hard cap might not hurt. I am absolutely certain d6 thief's have been done, will check the forum and blog histories :) (mines a nobiran, not human, so won't post that).

The problem is that unlike D&D 3E/5E, ranged backstabs cost another proficiency. I might want to reduce the thief's weapon selection to auto-include Sniping in its design, which may be appropriate.

You can simulate a D&D-type "barbarian" by having your fighter take berserkergang (for the rage) and swashbuckling (for the unarmored AC). The Companion totem and culture rules are beyond the scope of what I'm envisioning here.

The assassin, on the other hand, is a "sneaky fighter" with better HD than a thief and less than that of a fighter. Interesting, but, again, I'm not sure if it fits the scope here.

I combined Hide in Shadows and Move Silently into Stealth, which gives Thief classes and extra open proficiency slot which they can use to help customize however they’d like.

You could add a proficiency for Thief-type classes only called “Thug” or “Resilient “ or something that gives them +1 hit point per level. That would address the d4 hp issue somewhat for more ruffian-type thieves without having to redesign the classes and also let you control which thief classes get the potential hit point bump.

 

[quote="moorcrys"] I combined Hide in Shadows and Move Silently into Stealth, which gives Thief classes and extra open proficiency slot which they can use to help customize however they’d like.

You could add a proficiency for Thief-type classes only called “Thug” or “Resilient “ or something that gives them +1 hit point per level. That would address the d4 hp issue somewhat for more ruffian-type thieves without having to redesign the classes and also let you control which thief classes get the potential hit point bump. [/quote]

An interesting idea!

I agree with all the class things you said, and that’s my view of the berserker in normal play too, proficiencies are so good for flavour.

So, does it come with an intro adventure? I think it may need it to be self contained. Also to set the scene.

[quote="Chimera_Prime"] I agree with all the class things you said, and that’s my view of the berserker in normal play too, proficiencies are so good for flavour.

So, does it come with an intro adventure? I think it may need it to be self contained. Also to set the scene. [/quote]

An intro adventure would be cool; a ghoul cult in a village? Toadmen raids?

Ghouls set an undead theme early, and people will be looking for the cleric which won’t be there. Needs to be toadmen based off that survey. But maybe a third party or other aspect. I’m trying to think about good intro adventures I have seen. That are short, the page budget would be tight.

A micro-sandbox might work; a small swamp? jungle? desert? (say, 8x8 6-mile hexes), a few NPCs with agendas, and a few (2-3?) one-page dungeons.