Ceremonial Magic

This is very useful feedback. Here is a proposed rule to address your concerns:

Substitute Special Components: Finding the right special components for a ceremony can be a challenging and time-consuming endeavor. Eldritch power is, however, fungible on a metaphysical level. This fungibility allows a ceremonialist to substitute alternative special components of the same total gp value for the unique special components required for any given ceremony. Since it is more challenging to tap the energies for the ceremony in this case, the ceremonialist suffers a -1 penalty per level of the ceremony on his Ceremony Throw when using subsitute special components. Merchants such as curios dealers, herbalists, and antiquarians will sell nonspecific special components (such as spider webs, plant roots, crushed ivory, and so on) for 1gp each, in various markets, subject to the usual limits of equipment availability and commission.

Why this addresses the problem:

  • It imposes a very minor penalty on low-level ceremonies but an increasingly severe one on high-level ceremonies. You may risk using the "generics" on a 1st level spell but not on a 6th level one.
  • By setting the price for generics at 1gp and stating that the "total value" has to equal the special component cost, it allows for them to be widely available even at low-class markets. A Class V market like Turos Tem would have 30 x 1gp worth of components available and 30 x 1gp x 10 = 300gp commisisonable per month. That's enough that a low-level ceremonialist could do quite a few ceremonies before running out.
  • The escalating penalty implicitly justifies why subsitute components don't work for magic research; the penalties would be sky high. 

 

I like this rule a lot and I feel it solves the issues I was having with special components.

(I still feel like the blood sacrifice rules have some weirdnesses to them but I think part of that is just conflicting drafts >.>)

Hrmmmm… alright!

Now, I like this, but there are a bunch of things that would flow from it. Does this generic use apply to other things like magical research? What if you just search for, say, the spiderwebs in the market, can you get something with reduced penalty, but still in “bulk”? Say, you wanted “fire element components” or something…? Better than a hundred jars of spiderwebs, but not actually 10 salamander tongues…?

ETA: This is sorta the same issue as finding a Venturer henchman instead of a generic henchman, isn’t it?

I'd had a thought to allow alchemists to 'boil down' special components into a generic form (philosopher's stone?) for cost+time; some flat or raising percentage rate depending on the value, maybe. Gives them something else to do, makes the specialist more interesting.

 

[quote="Jard"]

 

I feel like special components would bother me less if they were restricted for the tradition, instead of unique for each ceremony. Generic components would feel less rare to purchase for me and more likely that PCs would have access to some form of ceremony. Perhaps 1st-3rd level ceremonies can be performed with generic components and 4th-6th require individual components. I'm just thinking out loud here at this point.


-Aryxymaraki

 

I've been wracking my brain for some time now trying to condense monster parts into a broader list of ingredients, each one being acquirable from multiple monsters and usable for multiple spells.  my initial attempts have been unsatisfying.

Going back to an unquoted part of your statement: in the original game, you can buy a crate of monster parts for a base price 300gp if you can convince a merchant to sell them to you (requires a 12+ reaction roll).  The book recommends rolling a wilderness encounter to see which parts they are.  Between the randomness of that table, the number of merchants available by class, how many loads they're willing to deal in, the reaction roll requirement, and the (demand modifier + 4d4)*10% of dealing with a market, finding special components on the open market can be quite complicated!

[/quote]

 

I could see this becoming interesting in play, though, with a ceremonial caster trying to find Venturer and Thief henchmen to buy, barter, or steal components for their magic.

Ooooh… ok, riffing off this… in the new research rules, there are cost reductions for various skills (don’t have it in front of me right now). There could be the “random stuff” (spiderwebs and newt eyeballs) that Alex proposed that acts as a penalty there, Alchemist generic components that provide no (or less) penalty, sphere appropriate level (magic skulls, or ogre parts, or tuned to death magic by an alchemist?) and spell specific (you actually get the ogre skulls the spell calls for)… some type of progression of penalties or bonuses could make the closer stuff plausible without making the whole thing grind to a halt because you need to find 15 more gryphons.

I like the substitute special components.

What is the weight / encumbrance of substitute special components?

[quote="Alex"]

Overall, I am happy with the ceremonialists being tied to their places of power for divine power. One idea I did consider for divine power is that it is maintained if in one's place of power, and vanishes 24 hours after leaving it (instead of vanishing every 24 hours, period, and only being usable in the place of power). That would allow the ceremonialist to travel in and around his sanctum for short disatances. But that might also have its own problems of bad incentives. Happy to get further feedback from the crowd.

[/quote]

I'd support most anything to give ceremonialists more power within their lairs; or to invest in their sanctum to improve it.

Contrast Saruman, or Sauron, who concentrated himself in Orthanc (and, at the end, could only threaten the Shire), with, say, Galadriel, who "spread" the entirety of Lothlorien. The tower in Conan the Destroyer fell with that sorcerer.

Further, Gandalf eschewed that choice, wandering instead, and may have invested elsewhere, using the libraries of Lorien, Gondor, etc as his bases of research. Perhaps Akiro did the same, and was at once weaker (power concentration) and stronger (ability to wander) because of it.

 

Weron - to avoid a lot of complexity, the rules assume that special components are essentially weightless outside of metamphora. You can treat them as 1 item each if they are larger things like skulls and you want to be more diligent about it. But outside of metamphora they will fade of their magical power.  Metamphora have considerable weight. I believe its 1 stone per 60gp.

There is a lot of game design value in this approach, which hopefully should be fairly clear.

Thanks. I was a bit confused trying to figure out special component and metamphora weight when I read Lairs & Encounters.

Does eldritch tradition have any direct impact on ceremony selection? Can a ceremonialist of one tradition learn a ceremony from the codex of a ceremonialist of another tradition?

Eg. Balbus, who performs ceremonies in the liturgical tradition, finds the codex of Ra-Ramses, who performs ceremonies in the chthonic tradition. Balbus uses the chance to finally learn choking grip. Can he copy it? When he performs it, does he perform it as a ceremony of the liturgical tradition, with all the implements that entails? There's nothing even a little chthonic about the way he performs it?

 

 

 

 

 

[quote="creases"]

Does eldritch tradition have any direct impact on ceremony selection? Can a ceremonialist of one tradition learn a ceremony from the codex of a ceremonialist of another tradition?

Eg. Balbus, who performs ceremonies in the liturgical tradition, finds the codex of Ra-Ramses, who performs ceremonies in the chthonic tradition. Balbus uses the chance to finally learn choking grip. Can he copy it? When he performs it, does he perform it as a ceremony of the liturgical tradition, with all the implements that entails? There's nothing even a little chthonic about the way he performs it?

[/quote]

This is a great question. I didn't answer it in the rules but I will need to. The answer is that codexes are tradition-specific. If you want to learn ceremonies from other traditions you would need to take Ceremonial Magic proficiency to learn another tradition.

I think at that point, though, you could perform the tradition with the implements of either tradition - like a martial artist who knows multiple styles and begins to blend them into his own unique fighting art.

 

When ceremonialists "increase their repertoire" at an athanaeum, cult temple or what have you, does that mean their repertoire can increase beyond normal levels? Or does it rather mean that they can add formulae to their codices, which they can then switch into and out of their repertoires, like a mage?

ETA Oh, while I'm at it: What is the deal with ceremonialists and ritual spells? Do they use the same rules as spellcasters for those? Or do ritual spells turn into "ritual ceremonies" or something like that?

Hasty or methodical costs increase and decrease (respectivly) the value of those costs required to complete a ceremony.  However it isn't explained why that is the case, especially given it is more or less risky based on how you preform the ceremony itself (implying the altered risk of failure is the increased or decreased 'cost' for the speed of the ceremony).  Is there something I have missed there?

It feels as if the idea is that there is some ambient accumulation of power for the time spent doing the ceremony (regardless of location) vs the cost of stored power amounts (a time to cost ratio), thus needing more cost to do things faster.

 

With blood sacrifices, could a lawful/neutral ceremonialist actually gain power from sapient beings for willing sacrifices, without gaining corruption or needing to use a chaotic location.  While not really an act one could consider 'good', ACKs law-chaos doesnt really play into the good vs evil spectrum as wholesale as other D&D-esk systems.  There are civilasitions that did such things in the past for the good of the community (thus lawful in design).  Unwilling sacrifices would be food for corruption.
Self mutaliation seems to imply there is some kind of benefit to willingly provide a sacrifice without direct corruption.

RULES UPDATES - will appear in the next playtest draft.

Mortal Wounds Section

Heroic Survival: In heroic fantasy campaigns, heroes are considerably more likely to survive mortal wounds than ordinary men. Adventurers with d6 HD add +2 to their 1d20 roll on the Mortal Wounds table. Adventurers with d8 HD add +4, adventurers with d10 HD add +6, and adventurers with d12 HD add +8.

Equipment Section

Special Components, Miscellaneous:   When living thing dies, a residue of its soul will linger in some its component parts, such as organs and cellular fluids. These parts are known as special components and can be tapped by ceremonialists to power their ceremonies. While the best results are gained from rare components that are unique to each ceremony, an equal value of miscellaneous special components such as spider webs, plant roots, crushed bones, and so on can be used instead if desired. The ceremonialist suffers a -1 penalty per level of the ceremony on his Ceremony Throw when using miscellaneous special components. See Chapter 5, Costs of Ceremonies, on p. XX for more details.

Spending Fate Points section:

  • A character may spend a Fate Point to temporarily gain one rank in any proficiency available to his class or to temporarily gain a thief ability (excluding backstab) at one-half his class level. The effect lasts 1 turn (10 minutes). 

Special Components section

Substitute Special Components: Finding the right special components for a ceremony can be a challenging and time-consuming endeavor. Eldritch power is, however, fungible on a metaphysical level. This fungibility allows a ceremonialist to substitute alternative special components of the same total gp value for the unique special components required for any given ceremony. Since it is more challenging to tap the energies for the ceremony in this case, the ceremonialist suffers a -1 penalty per level of the ceremony on his Ceremony Throw when using substitute special components. Merchants such as curios dealers, herbalists, and antiquarians will sell nonspecific special components (such as spider webs, plant roots, crushed ivory, and so on) for 1gp each, in various markets, subject to the usual limits of equipment availability and commission.

Congregants section

In order to tap divine power during a ceremony, a ceremonialist must perform the ceremony in a temple or other place of worship. In lieu of a temple, a pinnacle of good can be substituted for white magic, a sinkhole of evil for black magic, and an elemental area for elemental magic of its type. If a temple is not available, the ceremonialist can create a temporary one by having his congregants participate in the performance of the ceremony. Congregants count as participants if they are within 30’ of the ceremonialist and take no other action throughout the ceremony. The number of congregants required is equal to (ceremony level -1)2. If at any point the ceremonialist is driven out of the temple, or if the required number of congregants are lost, then the ceremony cost cannot be paid by divine power from the congregants. Otherwise, the divine power is consumed when the ceremony cost is paid.

 

Anyone else struggling with reconciling mishaps with some of the types of "magic" that they are trying to model with the ceremonial magic system? I'd love to hear others' thoughts about the impact on balance if some of the extreme results on the mishaps table were removed.

[quote="Hardrada"]

Anyone else struggling with reconciling mishaps with some of the types of "magic" that they are trying to model with the ceremonial magic system? I'd love to hear others' thoughts about the impact on balance if some of the extreme results on the mishaps table were removed.

[/quote]

Can you give some examples of the problem areas you've spotted?

"Problem" isn't how I'd describe it. It's more of an issue that I like the flavor of requiring a ceremony to model esoteric buddhist "miracles" -- acknowledging that this is a perilous path for a variety of reasons -- but the mishaps don't fit the flavor the same way as for an eldritch Howardian caster.

Big picture, I can probably just modify the mishaps a bit and achieve what I'm looking to do: Adventurer, Daimyo, Shogun.

[quote="Hardrada"]

"Problem" isn't how I'd describe it. It's more of an issue that I like the flavor of requiring a ceremony to model esoteric buddhist "miracles" -- acknowledging that this is a perilous path for a variety of reasons -- but the mishaps don't fit the flavor the same way as for an eldritch Howardian caster.

Big picture, I can probably just modify the mishaps a bit and achieve what I'm looking to do: Adventurer, Daimyo, Shogun.

[/quote]

I was literally just talking to my local gamer group about how I thought Heroic Fantasy could be used to run "Ashigaru, Daimyo, Shogun"! I'm so excited to hear you've came to the conclusion. 

 

Japan's a nice enclosed area that can provide a full campaign experience, about ~300 24 mile hexes or abouts. I've been wanting to do a campaign treatment with my hex maps, campaign character classes from the boardgame Tokaido, and some of the concepts from Microprose's Sword of the Samurai for quite a while now. And a good watercolor artist.

What I'd kinda like to do sometime is decompose the mishaps into their PC-spell-building-cost in order to get some generic baselines of what the power of the mishaps are; then recompose them into more generic forms I can riff off of during play - my main issue with the concept is much like Hardrada's, in that I'd like the mishap to reflect somehow the circumstances and spell involved. I have the same general opinion of the PC's magical research mishaps as well.

Limitations of the must-be-finished-to-be-published product :) In a perfect world, every spell would have an anti-effect as a mishap condition, perhaps.