Really? Really?!?

As a long time player and supporter of ACKS and Autarch I wanted to chime in and say that the association of Vox Day with this Kickstarter -- even though it was initiated by Day himself -- has made me seriously consider whether I want to withdraw my support of it and Autarch in the future.  It would sadden me to do so -- ACKS is my go-to system -- but Vox Day is, I believe, inherently politized.  I think it would have been a different matter if he had posted something to the tune of "check out this Kickstarter some of you might be interested in.  It's a great resource for Swords and Sorcery."  But I think it is pretty obvious that Day used his original blog post to further a harmful political agenda, and not just garner support among his fans for this great game.

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

You admit to not being an expert, but don't let that stop you from pressing forward with very serious claims about a very large and diverse group of people? This speaks volumes.

Plenty of articles were written.. by the very people that Gamergate had accused of impropriety: http://www.deepfreeze.it/

Amusingly, Vox Day had almost no involvement in Gamergate itself (there was some overlap between GG and the rabid puppies), but I suppose you were quite determined to immediately prove Rodriguez right when it comes to that broad brush painting...

[quote="sulldawga"]

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

[/quote]

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  

[quote="thirdkingdom"]

 

 

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

 


-sulldawga

 

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  

[/quote]

 

TK, you're like 20 posts late, I already made the "Return of Kings" joke :-P

Ok, that out of the way, a little more serious of a response: If you guys aren't comfortable supporting this kickstarter, I support and respect your decision even if I'm choosing not to withdraw.  What I take umbrage with is Sulldawga's implication that those who complain about Vox (like me) and don't do anything (also me... sort of) might be hypocritical.

as I belabored earlier, I've had to share my hobbies with white nationalists before.  They're in the CK2 boards and the EU4 boards. They probably like game of thrones too.  I'm willing to bed some of them even drive the same cars as me.  I can't live my life keeping track of what they're into and making sure to vocally not buy that stuff anymore.

Now, I _have_ participated in some boycotts before.  When Chik-Fil-A's charitable giving foundation was giving money to politicians who were actually advancing homophobic agendas, I stopped eating there, which was tough because I love me some southern style chicken.  Ultimately I got over it and didn't eat there, but my wife and I discussed it a bit and we realized that, if we ever absolutely had to have a sandwhich, we could calculate how to be "carbon neutral" so to speak.  The money their charitable arm gets cannot possibly be the full 100% of the cost of my sandwich and waffle fries, therefore if I donate an equal amount to the Human Rights Campaign, I will have net done more to advance the causes of equality and tolerance.

Now, where am I going with this? Well, first I would argue we haven't necessarily done "nothing" because we got assurances from Alex that nothing resembling the hypothetical "Alpha" class would be possible.  An evil overlord is an established trope in fantasy literature, and one that can be created without overtly supporting harm.  

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to go too far down the road of my personal feelings about activism and what other people should do.  I think people should do what they think is right.  I could even see someone make a reasonable argument that states they feel as strongly as I do about Vox Day and racism yet don't feel that rescinding their KS pledge is a good idea.  So rest assured my intent was not to label others hypocrites.  

The difficulty I have with Jard's proposal relating to charity donations is that it does nothing about the issue which makes me sad in the first place, which is Vox Day and his followers using the KS as a platform to promote views I find repulsive.  My hope is that my actions convince others to drop their pledges and that in turn convinces Alex to disassociate himself from Vox and his followers. Or, at the very least, it makes Alex less likely to agree to a future deal like the one he made this time around.  

My personal opinion is that making a charitable donation will have less of an effect on Alex's behavior than rescinding a pledge.

I would never tell you not to do it though.  I think it's highly likely that all I'm doing is making myself feel better and that Alex could care less about my pledge.  So who am I to tell you that your donation is a bad idea?  If it makes you feel better about the situation, do it.

I mean, you're taking action to make the world a better place.  If I take the $60 I was going to spend on the KS and spend it on cheeseburgers, then there's a pretty good argument that you're the one accomplishing something good while I'm just massaging my ego.

It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

A coordinated online harassment campaign

Speech is not harm.* Damaged feelings are not equivalent to damaged bodies or damaged property. People who believe that speech is harm, and attempt to move the law and culture towards accepting that belief, are a threat to free speech. Heaping hate and ridicule on such people--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "social justice warriors" or "snowflakes"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

Similarly, heaping hate and ridicule on white nationalists--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "racists" or "Nazis"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

One's views on free speech and one's views on race are completely independent of one another. Therefore, Vox Day can simultaneously be on the side of good and of evil. As can his opponents.

Politically, the racists are currently working to re-implement New Deal era immigration restrictions, which is bad policy. The SJWs, on the other hand, are working to abridge or repeal the First Amendment, which is tyranny. That makes the SJWs the more immediate threat, and VD my dubious ally. Much like the free states turning against the slaves states once the British were no longer a threat, or the U.S. turning against the Soviets after the Nazis were defeated, VD can be dealt with after our mutual enemies have been eliminated.

And that kind of thinking is why I love ACKS.

Seriously, though. I am a libertarian who lived most of my life in L.A. If I wasn't willing to game with people with political beliefs I find offensive, I would never have played at all. Obviously, your calculus could be different. And, if someone decides, for political reasons, to withdraw their support from this Kickstarter, or from Autarch in general, that's their prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to judge them for their cowardly decision.

* Yes, in some cases, speech can be assault. But those cases generally involve people who are close enough to one another to pose an immediate threat, which is generally not the case on the internet ("Those tweets are coming from inside the house!!!"). In any case, as far as I know, no one was actually harmed or convicted of anything during Gamergate or the Puppies campaigns.

1 Like

[quote="Alex"] If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward.  [/quote]

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.

[quote="sulldawga"]

 

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 


-Alex

 

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.

[/quote]

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

 

 

[quote="Jard"]

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

[/quote]

 

If you really want to show Vox Day, I suggest donating to the group most negatively affected by whites, American Indians.

I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.

[quote="Alex"]

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

[/quote]

 

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Does the bck book need sexy dinosaurs, too?

[quote="DrPete"]

I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.


-thirdkingdom

Does the bck book need sexy dinosaurs, too? [/quote]

Those are in the 2018 Swimsuit Calendar

 

That’s actually the perfect way to counter Vox Day; get Chuck Tingle to write up a class. Handsome bad boy T-rex (with cute abs).

(See Edit Below)

[quote="xfrogman5"] If you really want to show Vox Day, I suggest donating to the group most negatively affected by whites, American Indians. [/quote]

I don't particular want to show anyone.  I didn't even know who Vox Day was until a few weeks ago.  I wish I could go back to those days, before my hobby and these forums had become the latest battleground.  Also, not to be rude, but you appear to have been on these forums for approximately 1 week and haven't posted anywhere but here, and google had precious few results for xfrogman5, one of which included the comment about "the advice Vox gives", so I am not sure I want to engage with you further.

[quote="thirdkingdom"] I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library. [/quote]

Noting my above statement that I don't want to "show" anybody, is there something I should know about the Billings Public Library?  Are they famous for anti-racist outreach programs or something? Or is that just where Vox Day is from?

I appreciate you responding to me with suggestions, and want to re-iterate I respect your decision to not back something you're uncomfortable with. I am somewhat disappointed that another member of your game, sulldawga, seems more interested in twisting Alex's arm, which I believe will succeed only in breaking Alex's arm (if anything) and do nothing to stop or slow Vox Day's activities.  I'd like to try to find a way to show, in good faith, that while I don't wish to withdraw my pledge, I do not support racism or white nationalism in any form.  If you think the Billings Library is a good choice, I'd be happy to hear you out.


EDIT: aw CRAP! things got SILLY while I was typing my serious response.... uhhhh.... think fast....  WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB!

So, Vox Day really hit the "public" eye by spearheading a group of sci-fi fantasy authors and, critics, I guess, who were opposed to the increased diversity in the Hugo awards (see Rabid Puppies and Sad Puppies).  Last year their slate of nominees included serious authors along with some "joke" entries, one of whom was bizarre erotica author r. Chuck Tingle, author of classics such as Pounded in the Butt by my own Butt.  Being the brilliant man that he is, Tingle started to troll the Puppies and Vox Day in particular.  You can read about it here: https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/chuck-tingle-trolling-hugo-zoe-quinn-genius/

 

Anyway, at some point Tingle noticed that the domain name therabidpuppies.com was unclaimed, so he went ahead and purchased it and set up his own website, which is still up.  I made the Billings Public Library comment because it is one of the groups that Dr. Tingle always suggests one should make donations to.

EDIT: and I just saw this website, too: stixhiscock.com

EDIT EDIT: here's an article explaining what is up with the above link: http://io9.gizmodo.com/amazon-pulls-castalia-house-book-for-ripping-off-john-s-1793533638

First an apology for not being able to support this excellent kickstarter. My finances are all claimed, even the $10 level. Maybe the  Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar next time eh? ;) 

Second, anyone interested in heroic fantasy , the OSR or the like better  get used to running into  Right Wingers, Reactionaires, .Alt Right  and all kinds of groups like that. Its a very popular hobby among that set. Especially OSR games.

Third, giving money to native American  won't make  make Vox Day happy. He is a Native American  himself and a registered member of a tribe, not sure which one  He's also cordial with Chuck Tingle as the Rabid Puppies got Mr. Tingle a Hugo nomination. The  best thing you can do with your money is to put it to the kickstarted here for the Chosen One and add a little "Blue Rose" style to the mix. 

Fourth  this community really isn't big enough yet to have internal disputes without inadvertently harming allies.  May I consder taking the Libertarian approach to the problem, just worry about a good product . saying I won't fund this because that meany Vox Day says bad thing when you planned to do originally  nothing to harm the .Alt Rught whose primary motto is We Don't Care, Its does hurt friends here and its hurts trust. Honeslty Alex knows how to navigate the waters, put politics aside and trust him to handle the requests in the right way. He's never failed before. 

Fifth and last. I get no say I sure hope somebody incudes a level based defense adjstment to make up for assumed magic item. Its probably the only thing I have yet to see in OSR game done right and its fits heroic fantasy to a T, Conan isn't harder to hit because of his +1 shield but because of his skills, that kind of thing. 

[quote="5 Stone Games"]

Third, giving money to native American  won't make  make Vox Day happy. He is a Native American  himself and a registered member of a tribe, not sure which one [/quote]

Surely this can't be true!  How can he be a white supremacist and a Native American.