Really? Really?!?

wmarshall, thanks for an even-handed and thoughtful response!

At the risk of continuing to kick the hornet's nest I will disagree with but a single point you made, but I generally either agree or somewhat agree with everything else: I don't feel that Rhetorical Gamer and whoever is behind veritas deciding to pull their pledges were trying to force Alex to drop VoxDay.

I may be projecting my own biases in what I see, but it seemed to me like they respected people who chose to stay on the kickstarter.  To me, getting to the point of "forcing" would be extolling others to also pull their pledges.  I feel as though they are doing what EVERYONE should feel entitled to do, which is to not spend money on things you don't like and be honest about why you don't like it.  I don't see that as oppression or tyranny or "countering hate with hate".  That's the motherloving Free Market at work.

But yes, thank you for making your point, it's how I feel too.  As I said farther up, I've been here too long to let Vox Day's sudden visibility prevent me from enjoying my hobby.  But I'm also under no obligation to pretend he DOESN'T bother me.  As you said, ethno-nationalism is scary stuff.  It SHOULD be possible to express distaste for things like that in a reasonable way, and with the possible exception of the few posts just before Alex weighed in, I truly believe this board did a good job of that.

Wmarshal, as you said, I am uncomfortable with Vox and his comrades. I tried to turn things positive with a counter campaign. This later exchange is me just trying to say that I’m not ashamed of being against stuff like racial intolerance, and I’m not going to apologize for it. Somehow, I’m having to defend that position.

Nobody has brought racist rhetoric to the boards. I was just trying to say that I strongly disagree with the logic that intolerance of hatred is worse than hatred. In fact, I feel the opposite, that tolerating hate is bad. This is apparently more controversial than I thought.

Alex has asked us to stop, though, so I’m going to try to stop.

I'm pretty sure that VD would consider me one of the SJWs (If I were remotely important enough for anyone to consider me at all! I think that is not actually the case.)

I'm also pretty sure that the gist of the artwork - sending "minions" after identified SJWs to harm them - is more metaphorical than being wholly fantastic. There's a subtext, here, which is readily apparent to anyone familiar with the history of harassment of real individuals which VD has egged on.

So, this artwork isn't a joke. It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

Viewed in that light, in can't be engaged with apolitically, because it is in itself a barely-coded political statement of his intention to harm his targets through proxies, an activity which he has publicly carried out.

[quote="verita"]

I applaud those speaking outright, but my general nature is one of compartmentalization, so I post under an additional layer of anonymity. There is very little in life that is apolitical, and I resist dirtying my neutral persona here by stepping into the deep muck of the Internet.

I fundamentally disagree with the action taken on both ethical & business standings.

I had not known 'Vox Day' as anything but a minor self-published author until now, and having gone through his blog and other associated research, I would rather have kept my original impression. This is less an issue of 'free speech' than it is 'purchased speech', and this action taken by Autarch sullies their creative output. It doesn't matter that the eventual output will be, to use a term Theodore may approve of, whitewashed, to remove overt political references. The 'speech' portion of his action has already occured, and with the cooperation of and implied approval of Autarch. Theodore may now go back to his feckless band of internet tough guys, point to this product, and say "See? I matter. I can be heard. I deserve attention." This is a distinct difference from other venues that have, correctly, ignored or marginalized his participation. The fact it ss in something so technically minor as a game supplement from a small publisher is irrelevant to his cause. In point of fact, his odious worldviews fully restrict him to such minor efforts as hijacking the Hugos or infesting a Kickstarter - there is no larger market for his type.

At best, this is a distraction. At worst, it risks Autarch becoming embroiled in the same social arguments that burn across the internet daily, and permanently affecting its reputation. It cannot be spun as apolitical - Autarch ceded control of the narrative when the deal was struck, and now must rely on Theodore's restraint and good judgement, what supply there is of it, to emerge a neutral party. One cannot crowd fund a project without the consent of the crowd, and catering to a noxious fringe, only seemingly vociferous due to the structure of the 'Net, is not a well-considered decision. This is far beyond discussion about how much skin our barbarian princesses reveal, or the inherent rights of fictional orcs, and any comparison to that in this matter is myopic at best. Autarch has catered to the views of a person who disagrees with the base genetic makeup of actual living humans, allowing him to purchase (outside the normal interactions of a Kickstarter) a soapbox to stand upon. He does not do this out of the respect he holds for the product, the genre, yourself, or Autarch. The Dark Lord name is one tied strongly to his political activities. This is not an apolitical event. 

I can only assume it was deemed worth the business risk. The 'libertarian free market' response is not additional monies pledged as protest, it is the retraction of pledges, for those who take these things seriously. Money is speech, and backers names will be listed alongside Theodore's, as complicit as he was in the production of the final draft, and implicitly linked in his future efforts at promotion of himself and his ideologies. 

Sadly, there seems no way to independently support Omer's Kanahu.

I'd like you to contrast this with the quantifiable good done as part of ACKS' Bundle Of Holding - thousands of dollars gifted to the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation - for a sense of my disappointment in Autarch as an entity. [/quote]

[quote="The Wyzard"]

I'm pretty sure that VD would consider me one of the SJWs (If I were remotely important enough for anyone to consider me at all! I think that is not actually the case.)

I'm also pretty sure that the gist of the artwork - sending "minions" after identified SJWs to harm them - is more metaphorical than being wholly fantastic. There's a subtext, here, which is readily apparent to anyone familiar with the history of harassment of real individuals which VD has egged on.

So, this artwork isn't a joke. It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

Viewed in that light, in can't be engaged with apolitically, because it is in itself a barely-coded political statement of his intention to harm his targets through proxies, an activity which he has publicly carried out.

[/quote] I'd ask people to re-read and re-consider these two posts. While it is fine and well to espouse a philosophy of neutrality or to engage in relatively civilized debate about concepts of free speech, free market, etc. there is something else present in this situation.

Vox Day is more than an 'internet troll'. He is someone who uses the power and influence afforded to him by his internet presence to cause harm to real people, and to incite his followers to do the same. Real harm. Real people. This goes beyond abstract philosophy.

The white nationalist movement is one that uses embedded symbols to signal its tribalism and to reinforce its sense of influence and reach to its members, and the Dark Lord campaign is one that seeks to convert an ACKS supplement into such a symbol-keeper. In doing so, it will align the embedded symbols within the supplement with a deeply disturbing history of oppression, torture, and murder of black people within the United States and racist-motivated violence in other Western European countries. It doesn't matter if the artwork itself is innocuous enough in appearance to not offend people not in the know. The point is that hundreds of people *will* know what the artwork, and even the Dark Lord class, are really saying. It's code, for the converted and for those of us unfortunate to have witnessed this.

I can sympathize that the man behind Vox Day is a longtime contributor and may even be an aquaintance or friend of Alex Macris and Autarch. I do not begrudge Alex his politics or his acquaintances, and I genuinely respect the position you've articulated here, Alex. If Theodore Beale wants to contribute to ACKS development, I cannot begrudge you taking his money, but Vox Day is a racist construct and by allowing Vox Day and his agenda into the ACKS books in the form of content, you are aligning ACKS with some very, very dark and malignant stuff.

IMO, that's a real tragedy, and I hate to see this product that you have worked so hard for be used in this manner by something so virulent. It's truly unfortunate that Vox Day is taking advantage of your personal politics to forward his deeply disturbed agenda.

Anti-racism is not a philosophical stance. It's not that racism is 'bad' and Social Justice Warriors must rail against it because it's politically incorrect. The white nationalist movement is the inheritor of a long, very dark, history of murder, rape, torture, and terrorism. It's a heinous legacy, and our neighbors who are a part of that movement like to hide behind the seeming innocuousness of words and philosophy. 'It's all in good fun' and 'words don't hurt people' are smokescreens.

Please don't let yourself be fooled by such tactics.

I dont know Vox besides this rabid (?) puppy business that was going on at the Hugo awards and dont care about him but when he gets accused of actually harming people I would be interested in seeing proof of that. I somehow cant get rid of the feeling that people who dont outright condem Vox Day will soon be painted with the same brush as him.

Atlictoatl, thank you. Well said.

Rodriguez, take a few minutes, Google gamergate. A coordinated online harassment campaign against… well, real people. Articles talk about death threats, rape threats, swatting, doxxing. In the name of anti-political correctness, i guess (not an expert). A term from that movement, which I guess refers to people who oppose this kind of bad behavior and offensive thought.

So this Vox campaign is kind of about him wanoting art symbolizing his role in directing this kind of massive anonymous attack on people.

As a long time player and supporter of ACKS and Autarch I wanted to chime in and say that the association of Vox Day with this Kickstarter -- even though it was initiated by Day himself -- has made me seriously consider whether I want to withdraw my support of it and Autarch in the future.  It would sadden me to do so -- ACKS is my go-to system -- but Vox Day is, I believe, inherently politized.  I think it would have been a different matter if he had posted something to the tune of "check out this Kickstarter some of you might be interested in.  It's a great resource for Swords and Sorcery."  But I think it is pretty obvious that Day used his original blog post to further a harmful political agenda, and not just garner support among his fans for this great game.

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

You admit to not being an expert, but don't let that stop you from pressing forward with very serious claims about a very large and diverse group of people? This speaks volumes.

Plenty of articles were written.. by the very people that Gamergate had accused of impropriety: http://www.deepfreeze.it/

Amusingly, Vox Day had almost no involvement in Gamergate itself (there was some overlap between GG and the rabid puppies), but I suppose you were quite determined to immediately prove Rodriguez right when it comes to that broad brush painting...

[quote="sulldawga"]

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

[/quote]

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  

[quote="thirdkingdom"]

 

 

My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

 


-sulldawga

 

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  

[/quote]

 

TK, you're like 20 posts late, I already made the "Return of Kings" joke :-P

Ok, that out of the way, a little more serious of a response: If you guys aren't comfortable supporting this kickstarter, I support and respect your decision even if I'm choosing not to withdraw.  What I take umbrage with is Sulldawga's implication that those who complain about Vox (like me) and don't do anything (also me... sort of) might be hypocritical.

as I belabored earlier, I've had to share my hobbies with white nationalists before.  They're in the CK2 boards and the EU4 boards. They probably like game of thrones too.  I'm willing to bed some of them even drive the same cars as me.  I can't live my life keeping track of what they're into and making sure to vocally not buy that stuff anymore.

Now, I _have_ participated in some boycotts before.  When Chik-Fil-A's charitable giving foundation was giving money to politicians who were actually advancing homophobic agendas, I stopped eating there, which was tough because I love me some southern style chicken.  Ultimately I got over it and didn't eat there, but my wife and I discussed it a bit and we realized that, if we ever absolutely had to have a sandwhich, we could calculate how to be "carbon neutral" so to speak.  The money their charitable arm gets cannot possibly be the full 100% of the cost of my sandwich and waffle fries, therefore if I donate an equal amount to the Human Rights Campaign, I will have net done more to advance the causes of equality and tolerance.

Now, where am I going with this? Well, first I would argue we haven't necessarily done "nothing" because we got assurances from Alex that nothing resembling the hypothetical "Alpha" class would be possible.  An evil overlord is an established trope in fantasy literature, and one that can be created without overtly supporting harm.  

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to go too far down the road of my personal feelings about activism and what other people should do.  I think people should do what they think is right.  I could even see someone make a reasonable argument that states they feel as strongly as I do about Vox Day and racism yet don't feel that rescinding their KS pledge is a good idea.  So rest assured my intent was not to label others hypocrites.  

The difficulty I have with Jard's proposal relating to charity donations is that it does nothing about the issue which makes me sad in the first place, which is Vox Day and his followers using the KS as a platform to promote views I find repulsive.  My hope is that my actions convince others to drop their pledges and that in turn convinces Alex to disassociate himself from Vox and his followers. Or, at the very least, it makes Alex less likely to agree to a future deal like the one he made this time around.  

My personal opinion is that making a charitable donation will have less of an effect on Alex's behavior than rescinding a pledge.

I would never tell you not to do it though.  I think it's highly likely that all I'm doing is making myself feel better and that Alex could care less about my pledge.  So who am I to tell you that your donation is a bad idea?  If it makes you feel better about the situation, do it.

I mean, you're taking action to make the world a better place.  If I take the $60 I was going to spend on the KS and spend it on cheeseburgers, then there's a pretty good argument that you're the one accomplishing something good while I'm just massaging my ego.

It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

A coordinated online harassment campaign

Speech is not harm.* Damaged feelings are not equivalent to damaged bodies or damaged property. People who believe that speech is harm, and attempt to move the law and culture towards accepting that belief, are a threat to free speech. Heaping hate and ridicule on such people--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "social justice warriors" or "snowflakes"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

Similarly, heaping hate and ridicule on white nationalists--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "racists" or "Nazis"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

One's views on free speech and one's views on race are completely independent of one another. Therefore, Vox Day can simultaneously be on the side of good and of evil. As can his opponents.

Politically, the racists are currently working to re-implement New Deal era immigration restrictions, which is bad policy. The SJWs, on the other hand, are working to abridge or repeal the First Amendment, which is tyranny. That makes the SJWs the more immediate threat, and VD my dubious ally. Much like the free states turning against the slaves states once the British were no longer a threat, or the U.S. turning against the Soviets after the Nazis were defeated, VD can be dealt with after our mutual enemies have been eliminated.

And that kind of thinking is why I love ACKS.

Seriously, though. I am a libertarian who lived most of my life in L.A. If I wasn't willing to game with people with political beliefs I find offensive, I would never have played at all. Obviously, your calculus could be different. And, if someone decides, for political reasons, to withdraw their support from this Kickstarter, or from Autarch in general, that's their prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to judge them for their cowardly decision.

* Yes, in some cases, speech can be assault. But those cases generally involve people who are close enough to one another to pose an immediate threat, which is generally not the case on the internet ("Those tweets are coming from inside the house!!!"). In any case, as far as I know, no one was actually harmed or convicted of anything during Gamergate or the Puppies campaigns.

1 Like

[quote="Alex"] If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward.  [/quote]

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.

[quote="sulldawga"]

 

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 


-Alex

 

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.

[/quote]

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

 

 

[quote="Jard"]

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

[/quote]

 

If you really want to show Vox Day, I suggest donating to the group most negatively affected by whites, American Indians.

I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.

[quote="Alex"]

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

[/quote]

 

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Does the bck book need sexy dinosaurs, too?