Splitting up Hit Dice: Mass and Fighting Ability

Hm.

I wonder how the simulation changes if the shield’s AC bonus is given over to the Defensive Bonus rather than Armor Class, under the (half-baked) theory that putting a wall of metal or wood betwixt you and a weapon is just as good as dodging?

Given that it’s a best-case situation for the bladedancer (she has all of her buffs up and the fighter has no buffs at all), I think it’s fine.

If the bladedancer doesn’t have Shimmer, Striking, and Swift Sword, it’s a wipe-out.

I wrestled with that. I think if one looks only at man-to-man combat that makes sense. But when you add giants and ogres and dragons to the mix, it becomes apparent that the shield can’t really block 100% of such an attack.

Hm. That would be true, excepting Steve Rogers. I could see some additional bits to fix that alongside/related to the minimum damage rules you had above but I doubt the extra complexity would be worth it.

I don’t think I was entirely clear. I’ve played with these rules, and I am familiar with what they do. My question is: why is that of value to you? Saying, for example, that they make sense of the progression of weapons as armour got heavier, or that they force/encourage players to choose different weapons is fine, but doesn’t tell me why you see value in this where I see none (or so little it isn’t worth the effort). Having players juggle weapons because of this just becomes a mini-game in and of itself, and I see no more value in it than I do in clever grid tricks in 3.x or 4E, not to mention that it gets particularly strange with monster ACs. As far as a realism angle, the rest of the system is so far from that that the introduction of Weapon vs. AC isn’t nearly enough to scratch that itch for me.

Also, just to be crystal clear, I am not trying to slag anyone for liking these rules. I want to understand what the underlying motivation for adopting them is. Verisimilitude or realism? A style of “tactics” that requires the right weapon for the right job? Something else?

In my particular case I just like verisimilitude. Thomas Weigel has often said that ACKS reminds him of GURPS, in that I take a very reality- and physics-based approach to my designs. So I sometimes wrestle with the fact that the combat is based on such a complete abstraction. Which is not to say that ACKS combat isn’t fun – in fact, pound for pound, I reckon it has the best example of D&D-style combat, and in particular, the best balance between fighting and magery – but that doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally grimace at the abstract nature of it all.

Also, I don’t think that AD&D with Weapons v. Armor rules was a fun or playable system. But I do acknowledge that the system made much less “sense” in terms of world-coherence when those were removed.

Ah, okay. Fair enough. I agree with you, generally - that’s why I tried to adopt those rules several times myself. I think I’ve finally (mostly*) given up on “realism” in D&D; the system just isn’t built for it, but it’s plenty fun and playable.

*I say “mostly” because part of the attraction of ACKS is its somewhat simulationist bent which extrapolates the rules to their logical, in-game conclusion. In spite of that, it still maintains the best of the playable core of the game.

Probably one of the main reasons I ended up choosing ACKS as “my D&D” is the combat system: it strikes the perfect balance, for me, and the simplicity and quickness of the rules is a major part of that. I’ve got The Riddle of Steel and HarnMaster for when I feel like having realistic simulationist combat (TROS having the single best pre-modern hand-to-hand combat system there is in terms of realism, while still being among the most playable ones I know), but if you have a liking for D&D, that’s an itch that has to be scratched, and I find that doing it with simple rules is what works best.

… it certainly doesn’t hurt when you find a game that incorporates or makes unnecessary/extraneous all your houserules for AD&D.

I can’t help being interested in the split HD and HD-by-mass etc., but ultimately, for a D&D system, I was looking for something simpler than AD&D and something with more depth than BECM, and I got it.

I’ve heard such good things about Riddle of Steel; I’ll have to check it out.

In any event, I hope none of our ACKS loyalists get alarmed by this thread. There’s a reason its just a forum post under “House Rules”!

Wait, I thought this was all part of the run up to Advanced Adventurer Conqueror King, to be kickstarted in 2015 :stuck_out_tongue:

Maybe.

I prefer High-level Adventurer Conqueror King System Master rules, also known as HACKsMaster…

This is one of those rare issues where 3rd ed did a slightly better job I thought (with touch ac and such). I am very interested in these rules but would need the monsters all updated before I could use it.

How would oozes and undead work?

I don’t think it’s too raw of a deal for Str to be reduced in effectiveness. Str as is is far more mathimatically effective in combat than dexterity or con so actually it’s good if it were downgraded a bit.

I read a post or blog somewhere where someone compared a Str 18 fighter vs a dexterity 18 one and the advantage of dpr is far in the favor of the Str character.

Here are some revised thoughts on this topic.

  1. Hit Points are replaced by “Wound Points” and “Morale Points”. Loss of Wound Points represent physical injury, while loss of Morale Points represent fatigue, pain, and fear.

  2. Man-sized creatures have 5 Wound Points, modified by their CON adjustment. For large creatures, total WP are multiplied by 2. For huge creatures, WP are multiplied by 4. For gigantic creatures, WP are multiplied by 8. For colossal creatures, WP are multiplied by 16.

  3. Classed characters gain their Hit Dice and Con Modifier as additional Morale Points on top of their Wound Points.

  4. Because a monster’s Hit Dice subsume both its WP and MP, monsters reverse-engineer their Morale Points. To calculate how many Morale Points a monster has, subtract its Wound Points from its Hit Points (or a flat 5x HD).

EXAMPLES:

  1. Marcus is a 7th Fighter with 18 CON (+3 modifier). Marcus has (5 + 3) 8 Wound Points. He has 7d8+21 Wound Points. Assume he rolls 6, 5, 4, 7, 1, 2, 8, for a total of 33+21 = 54 Morale Points.

  2. Theog is an Ogre. A large-sized 4HD+1 monster, he has 22hp under conventional rules. Theog has 5 x 2 (large size) 10 Wound Points. He has (22-10) 12 Morale Points.

  3. Dumbo is an Elephant. A gigantic-sized 9HD monster, Dumbo has 40hp. Dumbo has (5 x 8) 40 Wound Points. He has (40-40) 0 Morale Points.

  4. Smaug is a Dragon. A colossal-sized 20HD monster, Smaug has 105hp. Smaug has (5 x 16) 80 Wound Points. he has (105-80) 25 Morale Points.

HEALING:

  1. Cure Light Wounds heals 1 Wound Point and 1d6 Morale Points.
  2. Cure Moderate Wounds heals 2 Wound Points and 2d4 Morale Points.
  3. Cure Major Wounds heals 1 Wound Point per 2 caster levels and 2d6 Morale Points.
  4. Cure Serious Wounds heals 1 Wound Point per caster level and 2d6 Morale Points.
  5. Cure Critical Wounds heals 3 Wound Points per 2 caster levels and 3d6 Morale Points.
  6. Wound Points heal at a rate of 1 per day, multiplied by size modifier (x2, x4, etc.)
  7. Morale Points recover at a rate of level per hour.

ATTACK THROWS:
Monster attack throws are based on Morale Points, by diving Morale Points / 4.5 and adding +1 to calculate Fighting Hit Dice. If Fighting Hit Dice turn out to be negative, you fight as a normal man.

However, monsters gain armor penetration. Large monsters ignore up to 2 points of armor, huge monsters ignore up to 4 points of armor, gigantic monsters ignore up to 6 points of armor, and colossal monsters ignore up to 8 points of armor.

EXAMPLE:

  1. Theog, with 12 morale points, has (12/4.5 +1) 3.67 Fighting HD, so he attacks as a 3+ hit die creature (7+). As a large creature he ignores 2 points of armor.
  2. Dumbo, with 0 morale points, fights as a 1 HD monster (10+). As a gigantic creature, he ignores 6 points of armor. Dumbo doesn’t really care if you are a skirmisher or a plate-armored knight… except insofar as the skirmisher has a higher DEX, he’ll be harder for Dumbo to hit!
  3. Smaug, with 25 morale points, has (25/4.5 +1) 6.56 Fighting HD, so he attacks as a 6+ hit die creature (4+). As a colossal creature he ignores 8 points of armor.

Consider Smaug attacking a Fighter with DEX 13 (+1), Plate +1 (+7), Shield +1 (+2), Weapon & Shield proficiency (+1). His AC is 11.
Under conventional ACKS rolls, Smaug’s attack throw is -3, and he would hit on 8+.
Under these rules, Smaug’s attack throw is 4+. He ignores 8 points of armor, reducing the Fighter to AC 3, so he hits on 7+.

Here are some revised thoughts on this topic.

  1. Hit Points are replaced by “Wound Points” and “Morale Points”. Loss of Wound Points represent physical injury, while loss of Morale Points represent fatigue, pain, and fear.

  2. Man-sized creatures have 5 Wound Points, modified by their CON adjustment. For large creatures, total WP are multiplied by 2. For huge creatures, WP are multiplied by 4. For gigantic creatures, WP are multiplied by 8. For colossal creatures, WP are multiplied by 16.

  3. Classed characters gain their Hit Dice and Con Modifier as additional Morale Points on top of their Wound Points.

  4. Because a monster’s Hit Dice subsume both its WP and MP, monsters reverse-engineer their Morale Points. To calculate how many Morale Points a monster has, subtract its Wound Points from its Hit Points (or a flat 5x HD).

EXAMPLES:

  1. Marcus is a 7th Fighter with 18 CON (+3 modifier). Marcus has (5 + 3) 8 Wound Points. He has 7d8+21 Wound Points. Assume he rolls 6, 5, 4, 7, 1, 2, 8, for a total of 33+21 = 54 Morale Points.

  2. Theog is an Ogre. A large-sized 4HD+1 monster, he has 22hp under conventional rules. Theog has 5 x 2 (large size) 10 Wound Points. He has (22-10) 12 Morale Points.

  3. Dumbo is an Elephant. A gigantic-sized 9HD monster, Dumbo has 40hp. Dumbo has (5 x 8) 40 Wound Points. He has (40-40) 0 Morale Points.

  4. Smaug is a Dragon. A colossal-sized 20HD monster, Smaug has 105hp. Smaug has (5 x 16) 80 Wound Points. he has (105-80) 25 Morale Points.

HEALING:

  1. Cure Light Wounds heals 1 Wound Point and 1d6 Morale Points.
  2. Cure Moderate Wounds heals 2 Wound Points and 2d4 Morale Points.
  3. Cure Major Wounds heals 1 Wound Point per 2 caster levels and 2d6 Morale Points.
  4. Cure Serious Wounds heals 1 Wound Point per caster level and 2d6 Morale Points.
  5. Cure Critical Wounds heals 3 Wound Points per 2 caster levels and 3d6 Morale Points.
  6. Wound Points heal at a rate of 1 per day, multiplied by size modifier (x2, x4, etc.)
  7. Morale Points recover at a rate of level per hour.

ATTACK THROWS:
Monster attack throws are based on Morale Points, by diving Morale Points / 4.5 and adding +1 to calculate Fighting Hit Dice. If Fighting Hit Dice turn out to be negative, you fight as a normal man.

However, monsters gain armor penetration. Large monsters ignore up to 2 points of armor, huge monsters ignore up to 4 points of armor, gigantic monsters ignore up to 6 points of armor, and colossal monsters ignore up to 8 points of armor.

EXAMPLE:

  1. Theog, with 12 morale points, has (12/4.5 +1) 3.67 Fighting HD, so he attacks as a 3+ hit die creature (7+). As a large creature he ignores 2 points of armor.
  2. Dumbo, with 0 morale points, fights as a 1 HD monster (10+). As a gigantic creature, he ignores 6 points of armor. Dumbo doesn’t really care if you are a skirmisher or a plate-armored knight… except insofar as the skirmisher has a higher DEX, he’ll be harder for Dumbo to hit!
  3. Smaug, with 25 morale points, has (25/4.5 +1) 6.56 Fighting HD, so he attacks as a 6+ hit die creature (4+). As a colossal creature he ignores 8 points of armor.

Consider Smaug attacking a Fighter with DEX 13 (+1), Plate +1 (+7), Shield +1 (+2), Weapon & Shield proficiency (+1). His AC is 11.
Under conventional ACKS rolls, Smaug’s attack throw is -3, and he would hit on 8+.
Under these rules, Smaug’s attack throw is 4+. He ignores 8 points of armor, reducing the Fighter to AC 3, so he hits on 7+.

The old Mayfair Role-Aids supplement Blood & Steel by Bryan Nystul introduced Wound Points based on size, with human-sized creatures having 5, tiny 3 up to gigantic 15. Mayfair’s Hits-to-Kill became Hits-to-Knockout. However, WP and HTK were separate damage tracks. Wounds were caused by “critical hits”, which occurred due to luck (natural 20), massive damage or an “expert strike” (exceeding to-hit roll by 10+). There were rules for Wound Level (a damage track with effects) and charts for simplified wounds or specific wounds. He does suggest only using the additional damage tracking with significant creatures. Lots of other stuff too in a relatively small package, very interesting for the time (1993). I recommend at least browsing it if you can find a copy. (Mayfair liquidated their stock in recent years, and you might find shrink-wrapped copies for $5 or so.)

Hey Alex, I like this set of rules on the subject best so far. My critical thinking:

WOUND POINTS AND MORALE POINTS

  1. I like 5 being the base for man-sized creatures. It works well with the Con modifier (-3 to +3) for a range of 2-8 “hp” for a human. Also, the way I view it, based upon that humans would have a d8 hit die, with an average of 4-5 hp for an adult… that compares well with an orc (which I have always wanted to consider overall equal to a 0-level human warrior). It also compares well with weapon damage dice IMO.

  2. I’m wondering how it works overall with monsters. Horses are a good example I think:

Light Horse
ACKS hp = 2-16 hp
WP/MP = 2-10 wp, 0-6 mp (averge wp: 9, average mp: 0)

Medium Horse
ACKS hp = 3-24 hp
WP/MP = 3-10 wp, 0-14 mp (average wp: 10, average mp: 3.5)

Heavy Horse
ACKS hp = 6-27 hp
WP/MP = 6-10 wp, 0-17 mp (average wp: 10, average mp: 6.5)

Considering verisimilitude, this idea gives the impression that a heavy horse technically isn’t any more likely to survive an injury than a light horse, but it does have more stamina, is more resistant to pain, and is less fearful.

  1. When I’ve considered the concept of “wound points” for my house rules, I’ve been tempted to say that they’re equal to half Con score which is very close to 5 + Con mod.

  2. APM: “Classed characters gain their Hit Dice and Con Modifier as additional Morale Points on top of their Wound Points.” This is a boost to PCs and NPCs. The alternative to keep it compatible with current ACKS assumptions is your mp = HD/level -1. In other words, 1st level characters have no mp. I guess that makes it incompatible with ACKS’ healing assumptions however. It looks like you’re choosing the lesser of 2 evils if you get what I mean. I think assuming 2nd level to be the default starting point for PCs is worth considering since then, the 1st HD can represent wp, and 2nd and subsequent HD can represent mp… and magical healing isn’t so bad then.

  3. In my house rules, I’ve assumed that hp represent “fatigue, pain, and fear” (and superficial wounds) and that 0 or less hp represent real wounds. In other words, 2 states of injury. WP/MP has 3 states of injury: morale points, wound points, 0 or less wound points. I bring it up, because I’ve been contemplating how to handle a “knife to the throat” or “critical hit” scenario and do not have a satisfying solution yet.

HEALING

  1. I don’t have any meaningful input for magical healing (except see above about starting at 2nd level).

  2. For natural healing, I like going with a % of max for mp. You would come up with a number based upon two things:

  • how fast do you think a person can naturally heal enough to be “adventure ready”?
  • is it easy for players to calculate?

I personally add a third criterion:

  • will it help me and the players recreate the feel of player characters like Conan, Aragorn, Perseus, Gandalf, etc? (because for the most part, these characters don’t spend weeks or months in the infirmary).

Again from a standpoint of verisimilitude, I can’t wrap my head around, a wizard returning to full health quickly and and a fighter with 18 Con taking “forever”. Ditto for magical healing… after a while, a cure light wounds spell is more like cure serious wounds on a wizard and a bandage on a fighter.

ATTACK THROWS
I’m wondering if armor wearing classes take too large a hit from these rules. There is a drawback to wearing armor in that it slows movement. Armor wearing warriors could often be easier to hit and slower! If I had to endure a blow from Dumbo, I think I’d fare better in a suit of armor, than none at all. Maybe to mitigate that, allow Str mod to affect encumbrance limits?

Beragon wrote: "I personally add a third criterion:

  • will it help me and the players recreate the feel of player characters like Conan, Aragorn, Perseus, Gandalf, etc? (because for the most part, these characters don’t spend weeks or months in the infirmary)."

Ignore this part Alex… it doesn’t apply to the concept of mp, since they heal per hour, not per day.

BERAGON wrote… “Classed characters gain their Hit Dice and Con Modifier as additional Morale Points on top of their Wound Points.” This is a boost to PCs and NPCs. The alternative to keep it compatible with current ACKS assumptions is your mp = HD/level -1. In other words, 1st level characters have no mp. I guess that makes it incompatible with ACKS’ healing assumptions however. It looks like you’re choosing the lesser of 2 evils if you get what I mean. I think assuming 2nd level to be the default starting point for PCs is worth considering since then, the 1st HD can represent wp, and 2nd and subsequent HD can represent mp… and magical healing isn’t so bad then.

It is definitely a boost to PCs and NPCs. If I used these rules it would be as part of a “Heroic ACKS” supplement so I think it would be appropriate to “buff” PCs.


MONSTERS: I had a further refinement to the system for monsters.

Monster Hit Dice determine their attack throws and number of morale points. Monster Hit are equal to stated HD in ACKS, - a number of Hit Dice based on their size:

  • Tiny: -1 hit point; 1 Wound Point
  • Small: -1/2 HD; 3 Wound Points or 1d4 Wound Points
  • Man-Sized: -1 HD; 5 Wound Points or 1d8 Wound Points
  • Large: - 2 HD; 10 Wound Points or 2d8 Wound Points
  • Huge: - 4 HD; 20 Wound Points or 4d8 Wound Points
  • Gigantic: - 8 HD; 40 Wound Points or 8d8 Wound Points
  • Colossal: - 16 HD; 80 Wound Points or 16d8 Wound Points
  • Stupendous: - 32 HD; 160 Wound Points or 32d8 Wound Points
    If HD are reduced to less than 0, the creature has no morale points and attacks as a normal man.

EXAMPLES:
Tiny: Giant Killer Bee.
Base HD: 1/2 HD (1d4 hit points).
Heroic: 1 Wound Point. 1d4-1 Morale Points. Attacks as 1- HD Monster.
Small: Kobold.
Base HD: 1/2 HD.
Heroic: 3 Wound Points. 0 Morale Points. Attacks as Normal Man.
Man-sized: Orc
Base HD: 1 HD.
Heroic: 5 Wound Points. 0 Morale Points. Attacks as Normal Man.
Man-sized: Hobgoblin
Base HD: 1+1 HD.
Heroic: 5 Wound Points. 1 Morale Point. Attacks as 1- HD Monster.
Large: Ogre
Base HD: 4+1 HD
Heroic: 10 Wound Points. 2d8+1 Morale Points. Attacks as 2+ HD Monster.
Huge: Wyvern
Base HD: 7
Heroic: 20 Wound Points. 3d8 Morale Points. Attacks as 3 HD monster.
Gigantic: Stegosaurus
Base HD: 11
Heroic: 40 Wound Points. 3d8 Morale Points. Attacks as 3 HD monster.
Colossal: Purple Worm.
Base HD: 15
Heroic: 80 Wound Points. 0 Morale Points. Attacks as Normal Man.
Stupendous: Giant Roc
Base HD: 36
Heroic: 160 Wound Points. 4d8 Morale Points. Attacks as 4 HD monster.

Note that these only work if used in conjunction with “ignore armor” for larger size monsters.
This is of course more simple than strictly necessary; one could actually for each monster divide them into “Wound Points”, “Morale Points”, “Attack Throw”, and “Armor Penetration”. There’s no per se reason they have to be all based one data point, except the important goal of simplicity.