Splitting up Hit Dice: Mass and Fighting Ability

General ACKS Forums House Rules
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9

TBD

  1. Poison, paralyzation, and energy drain - or “how are you suffering these consequences if you didn’t actually get hit”
  2. Smashing through armor, or “shouldn’t two-handed swords get a bonus to hit”
  3. Strength and attack throws, or “should strength apply to hit or to armor penetration”
  4. Magic item bonus and attack throws, or “should magic weapons provide a bonus to hit or to armor penetration”

[NOTE: Due to the awkward acronym FAHP, I am changing the term Mass HP to Life Points and Fighting Ability Hit Points to Hero Points, or LP and HP].

ADVANCED/CRAZY/WEIRD IDEAS

  1. Special Maneuvers: Special maneuvers (such as sunder or disarm) ignore Armor Class. Defense Class still applies. The target’s Defense Class against the special maneuver is increased by +1 per 5 Hero Points [Fighting Ability HP] remaining. The target receives a saving throw v. Paralyzation to avoid the effect.

EXAMPLE: Marcus, a heroic warrior with AC 10, DC 0, 18 LP and 50 HP, is fighting a skilled duelist (attack throw 2+). The duelist decides to disarm Marcus. The duelist needs 2+, modified by 50HP/5, 10, or 12+. If the duelist hits, Marcus will have to make a save v. Paralyzation or be disarmed.

  1. Smashing Through Armor: An attacker may reduce his weapon’s damage dice by one die type to gain +1 to hit, or two dice type to gain +2 to hit. Weapons may not be reduced below 1d4.

EXAMPLE: Gallantine, a 1st level fighter (attack throw 10+) is wielding a two-handed sword (1d10 damage). He is fighting Morgex, in plate armor and shield (AC 7). He is having trouble hitting Morgex, so he decides to try to “smash through armor”, reducing his weapon’s damage by three die types (d10->d8->d6->d4) in exchange for a +3 to hit. Now he needs 14+ instead of 17+.

  1. Poison, Paralyzation, and Energy Drain: A blow that misses due to DC has been dodged. A blow that misses due to AC has struck armor. A blow that hits and damages Hero Points has connected in some manner with the target, but it was parried or blocked. If the attacker’s damage deals Poison, Paralyzation, or Energy Drain, the target must make the appropriate saving throw to see if he was knicked/touched in the course of his parry. [This is more-or-less how zombie movies work. The hero tends to make his saving throws and avoid being “bitten” even though he’s clearly being beat-up during the fight.]

EXAMPLE: Lucas, an unarmored survivor of the ghoul-fever apocalypse (AC 0, DC 0, LP 5, HP 10) is attacked by a ghoul (attack throw 9+). The ghoul strikes and misses with two claws but hits with its bite. Lucas loses 4 HP. He must now save versus Paralyzation. If he succeeds, then the bite didn’t break skin - e.g. he actually was hit by the creature’s jaw bone slamming onto his forearm. If he fails, the bite broke skin and he is paralyzed.

  1. Mage’s Hero Points: A mage’s hero points don’t represent fighting ability so much as they represent the magical wards and enchantments that every mage of power surrounds himself with. Narration of the effects of hits versus the mage’s Hero Points should describe sparks of magic, strange deflections in thin air, etc.

  2. LP, HP, and Zero Level NPCs: Normal men have their Life Points. When they earn a level of experience, the hit die is gained as Hero Points. Starting PCs will thus have 1/2 CON LP and a die roll’s worth of HP. Normal monsters have their Life Points and default Hero Points based on their innate ferocity (like lions). Monsters of above-average HD for their type, such as orc chieftains, gain their additional hit points as Hero Points. Heroic monsters (a dragon highly experienced in war, for instance) might also have additional HP in this manner.

  3. Ability Score Bonuses to Life Points and Hero Points: Each level, up to 9th level, a character’s Life Points are increased by 3 points, to a maximum of CON. Each level, up to 9th level, a character’s Hero Points are increased by his WIS modifier. This (a) helps characters be a bit more survivable in the face of nasty critical hits, and (b) makes WIS an ability of more utility, and goes along with the idea that WIS improves saving throws.

EXAMPLE: Marcus has WIS 13 and CON 18. At 1st level he has 9 (one half CON) +3 (for one level) LP and 5 (roll of 1d8 +1 WIS modifier) HP. At 2nd level he gains 3 LP and (roll of 1d8+1 yielding a 6) 6 HP, for a total of 15 LP and 11 HP. At third level he reaches his maximum of 18 LP and gets another 1d8+1 HP, giving him (e.g.) 18 LP and 16 HP.

10

One of the reasons ACKS stands out to me is that there’s obviously a lot of math going on behind the scenes, but the “end-user” doesn’t have to deal with it directly, unless they want to.

I doubt I’ll use these rules (I highly value ACKS’ simplicity-in-play and how it contrasts with the depth-in-design), although I am a little tempted to. It would require going over every monster and explicitly listing their Atk Thr and APen, and maybe listing HD in a new form, with the prerequisite of knowing their weight…

But just the fact you can do the math to get these results is impressive.

11

Thank you for the kind words!

If we were to ever publish these rules, I’d provide that data to the end-user, of course. I have all the weights of the monsters worked out in a spreadsheet so it’s as easy as just entering the formula.

Heck, if there’s interest, I could publish it on the forums or blog.

12

There’s a tiny accountant trapped inside me, desperate for that data! I’d love to see it (with the pre-worked-out split HD, etc., if possible).

13

I like the Mass HP/Fighting HP rules.

Does the Dodge/Penetration system require two rolls to hit (one to defeat the dodge, another to penetrate the armour)?

14

No, it’s one attack throw. Here’s an example. An ogre (attack throw 10+, armor penetration 4, damage 1d12) is attacking Aurelyn, a bladedancer (AC 2, DC 7, MHP 5, FAHP 15).

The ogre’s attack throw target value is increased by 7 due to her DC. It is increased by (2-2) 0 from her armor. The ogre needs a 17+ to hit Aurelyn (20%).

Under traditional ACKS rules, the ogre would have had an attack throw of 6+ versus Aurelyn’s AC of 9, and would have needed 15+ to hit her (30%). So the chances of Aurelyn being hit have been reduced by about 1/3.

15

I didn’t mean to add the acronym “FAP” to the game.

Mass HP shall henceforth be called “Damage Points” (DP)
Fighting Ability HP shall henceforth be called “Hero Points” (HP)

16

OK. I’ll post it at some point, after more folks have given feedback on the thread.

17

I’ve seen Wound Points / Stamina for similar splits in other games (Traveller d20, SWd20, probably others). I like the idea here, but keeping armor penetration separate runs into the same issue it does in other systems where armor remains AC - limited conditional addition. Determining whether an attack hits now involves a roll, a subtract from Fighting to-hit, a query regarding value of armor worn by target, a subtraction / min / max operation (armor pen - armor value, min 0), an addition (of AP-AV to roll-THAC0), and another comparison with AC. That’s a lot of extra work compared to the basic roll, subtract, report AC hit!

I actually like Golan’s idea regarding separating to-hit and pen rolls. Two rolls is much easier to handle numerically - you roll 2d20 at the same time (in different, predesignated colors), perform two subtractions (your THAC0 and TPAC0), and then report a tuple “Hit AC n and penetrate armor m”. The trick here is getting the constants right to keep the probabilities about the same as they originally were (or to ensure other intended outcomes).

As for TBDs:

  • One could assume scratches and glancing blows; perhaps save at +4 if no body damage was inflicted?
  • This is one place where separating hit and pen rolls makes life easier. Some weapons might have +hit (daggers, fast weapons), some might have +pen (warpicks, pikes).
  • Seems to me that Str should apply to pen rather than hit, but that’s a raw deal for fighters.
  • This is the easy one - all of the above, in various combinations! It’s magic, man. Some magic swords cut through armor like butter, some guide their wielder’s hands. Plenty of room for variety in effects.
18

Since we’re calling out armor/shields as a distinct object getting hit now, what about armor degradation? Give those Craft proficiencies something to do in the field.

In theory, the Ogre with crossbow will be at a larger disadvantage than expected due to his mass not being able to contribute to his attack throw in this case? His strength contributes nothing to the crossbow’s operation, though he can wield a larger one. Spears would be better, as they’re thrown, perhaps slings and giant high-pull bows…

Would certain ranged weapons due to design, quality, or size add their own Armor Penetration values to use in lieu of the attacking creatures?

19

Firearms spring to mind…

20

I am not a fan of splitting attacks into 2 rolls; largely because of the unexpected impact it has on the GM. For instance, when the GM is rolling for 5 orcs to attack a PC, he needs to only do the math once, but he has to roll 2 dice 5 times. Using multiple dice is faster in 1-on-1 situations where the odds are recalculated frequently but much slower as soon as you get into instances of multiple attacks under the same mathematical circumstances. My fights, at least, have a lot of the latter and not much of the former.

(I also don’t think one can get the mathematics to work out the same very easily…or at least I’ve not been able to. The corner cases get weird).

In any event, I think the process would work as:

  1. Player declares attack.
  2. Judge indicates AC and DC.
  3. Player reduces AC by his AP, adds remaining AC and DC to target value and rolls.
  4. Player announces hit or miss.

It would NOT work well if AC is kept hidden, but perhaps that’s a worthwhile trade-off for other interesting game mechanical benefits.

21

Definitely. Every 10 hits stopped by armor reduces its AC by 1, starting with the shield. Multiply ## of hits required by the magic bonus (e.g. +1 shield takes 100 hits).

I do think various weapons would have an armor penetration. In fact, judging from my reading of “From Sumer to Rome” and similar books, I’d imagine something like this:

Shortbow: Short Range 1d6, AP 1; Medium Range 1d6, AP 0; Long Range 1d4, AP 0
Longbow: Short Range 1d10, AP 2; Medium Range 1d8, AP 1; Long Range 1d6, AP 0
Crossbow: Short Range 1d10, AP 2; Medium Range 1d8, AP 1; Long Range 1d6, AP 0
Arbalest: Short Range 1d12, AP 3; Medium Range 1d10, AP 2; Long Range 1d8, AP 1

The Guns of War rules I’m working on actually inspired the idea of armor penetration as its absolutely essential for making sense of guns. In general it’s quite helpful in making sense of A LOT of middle ages combat and weapons. D&D lost a lot when it forgot about Weapon v. Armor Class modifiers derived from Chainmail.

22

Saving at +4 if no Life Points dealt is a great idea! That really helps reduce the absurd deadliness of low-level poisonous critters and ghouls.

I agree that STR probably should apply to penetration rather than to hit. I also agree it’s a raw deal for fighters. On the other hand, in the context of applying these rules to a swords & sorcery world, mages and clerics would also be reduced in power, as are monster’s attack throws, so maybe it makes sense.

It does lead to an odd anomaly in that DEX contributes to DC and missile attacks but not melee attacks. Maybe the solution is that DEX contributes to attack throws, initiative, and dodge class; STR contributes to damage and armor penetration.

23

Very fair points. I guess I care more about the player-side complexity, though; I can script up “roll me z attacks with to-hit x and pen y against AC n and armor m, and group the rolls into whiffs, glances, hits, and crits”, for either alternative, so I’m relatively ambivalent. I can’t count on all of my players to do the same, though, and we already roll to-hit at the same time as damage, so one more die isn’t a huge deal to us. Maybe a parameterized roll20 macro would solve this problem…

24

We had one guy’s whole henchman group and PC all fail their poison saves against giant black widows last session… it was bad. Moral of the story: diversity your personal retinue, don’t play all front-liners.

And yeah, dex to hit in melee is the logical follow-on. Sort of troubling from a inter-stat balance perspective, since Dex is already great for everyone, but at least it’s consistent.

I did suspect there was a bit of swords-and-sorcery influence here. I like the idea of separating armor and mobility defenses from a simulationist perspective, rather than a thematic one, which may account for some differences in opinion :stuck_out_tongue:

25

Alex said: D&D lost a lot when it forgot about Weapon v. Armor Class modifiers derived from Chainmail.

That’s an interesting assertion. Why do you say that? It’s obviously subjective, and varies by one’s preferences, but in practice (in both AD&D and AD&D 2nd, which differ slightly) I never found their impact to be that meaningful, and considered it to be far outweighed by the additional overhead and kludgey feel when it came to monster AC, which were the majority of opponents, anyway. It’s particularly funny to hear you say that when ACKS has adopted nearly the lightest version of the D&D combat system ever published. To me, that’s no bad thing, as it’s immensely playable, and that outweighs any lack of simulation-ism. If it didn’t, I’d be playing RuneQuest, Rolemaster, or (God forbid!) Phoenix Command.

26

It makes sense of the transition of weapons as armor got heavier, and gives players a reason to not always take the most damaging weapon. On the face of things, a battle axe (1d8/1d8) is a better weapon to carry than a horseman’s mace (1d6/1d4). But if a target’s wearing plate and carrying a shield, the axe is -3 to hit, while the mace is +1, so there’s a 20% shift in the odds of striking the target. Likewise, the club (1d6/1d3) often looks like a better choice than the horseman’s mace, because it’s cheaper (free compared to 4 gold) and lighter (3 pounds compared to 5 pounds), but it’s an inferior weapon against armors of AC 7 or better.
It can also justify the existence of some of the excessive variety of pole arms - the bardiche is good against unarmored soldiers, the bec-de-corbin against plate, and the guisarme-voulge against ring and chain.
With the loss of the weapon vs armor table, the weapons of choice were bastard sword for a fighter, long sword for a thief, and footman’s mace for a cleric (mage players would argue between the staff for damage and the dagger for flexibility). That blend of weapons would tend to get chewed up by heavily armored opponents, since the bastard sword is 0 against plate if used two-handed and -1 or -2 if used one-handed, the long sword is -1 or -2 against plate, and the mace is only +1. Better would be a bec-de-corbin (+2 against plate), a long sword (thieves are hosed against heavy armor in 1e), and a footman’s flail (+2), while the mage should go dagger (-3, compared to -7 for a staff or -5 for darts).

Note also that the Armor Class Adjustment table was only for actual armor, not for “natural” ACs - i.e. attacking a character in chain mail (AC 5) used the table, but attacking a lizard man (AC 5) did not.

27

If I were to move further towards a simulationist perspective, I’d do it as follows.

  1. Remove “Hero Points” or “Fighting Ability Points entirely” and simply track “Life Points” or Mass. Life Points would be equal to CON (or 2x the values in
    the earlier example).

  2. Increase all damage by 1 die.

  3. Characters have an Attack Throw and a Defense Throw. Attack Throw is as normal. Defense Throw is equal to Attack Throw +7. Reduce the target value by 1 for a shield (more if magical); by 1 for Weapon & Shield proficiency; by DEX mod; by Swashbuckling bonus; and by Graceful Fighting bonus.

  4. To hit, a character must roll greater than his attack throw. A roll 8 or more points greater than his target value is a critical hit.

  5. The target may then attempt to parry/dodge by rolling greater than its defend throw.

  6. An unblocked hit deals damage to Life Points. But damage is reduced by the value of its Armor Class.

  7. An unblocked critical hit does double damage and allows an additional attack against the target (if it is still alive). A critical hit blocked by a normal parry does normal damage but allows an additional attack. A critical hit blocked by a critical parry is blocked. A normal hit blocked by a critical parry results in a riposte from the defender (free attack). The riposte cannot be blocked.

  8. The maximum number of cleaves, dodges, and ripostes a character may make per round is equal to level for fighters, 1/2 level for clerics/thieves, and 1 for mages.

EXAMPLE: A 5th level Bladedancer (DEX 16, CON 9, Leather Armor +1, 2 swords +1, Swashbuckling, Weapon Finesse) has Attack Throw (8-1-1-2-1-1) 2+, Defense Throw (8+7 - 2-1-1) 11+, Life Points 9, Armor Class 3. She has Swift Sword (2 attacks per round) and Striking, so she deals 3d6 damage per attack.

Her 5th level Fighter opponent (STR 16, CON 14 Plate +1, Shield +1, Sword +1, Weapon & Shield Proficiency) has Attack Throw (7-2-1) 4+, Defense Throw (7+7 - 1-1-1) 11+, Life Points 14, Armor Class 7. He deals 1d6+5 damage per attack.

They engage with Bladedancer winning the initiative. The Bladedancer makes her first attack, needing 2+ to hit and 10+ to crit. A roll of 6 is a hit. The Fighter parries, needing 11+. He rolls an 11 and parries. The Bladedancer makes her second attack and rolls a 9, a hit. The Fighter rolls a 9 to parry and fails. The Bladedancer rolls 3d6 for damage, yielding an 8; Subtracting 6 armor, the Fighter takes 2 HP of damage, and is down to 12.

It’s now the Fighter’s turn. He needs a 4+ to hit and 12+ to crit. He rolls an 8, a hit. The Bladedancer needs 11+ to parry, and rolls a 12. It’s now the next round.

The Bladedancer wins the initiative and attacks. Her first attack throw is a 7, a hit. The Fighter’s parry roll is a 20, a critical parry! This triggers a riposte. The Fighter’s riposte is a 3, however, so he misses. The Bladedancer now makes her second attack. Her roll is a 9, so she hits. Incredibly, the Fighter rolls a 19, a critical parry, and ripostes again! His attack roll of 8 hits. The Bladedancer now parries, and rolls an 18–a parry, but not a critical one.

It’s now the Fighter’s turn. He rolls a 16, scoring a critical hit. The Bladedancer attempts to parry, but rolls a 9. She therefore takes double damage of 4+2+5+5=16 points. Even reduced by her armor of 3 points, she is taken to -4 HP. The fight is over.

28

The Dark explained it as best anyone could.

I’m not saying that the game isn’t more fun or more playable without Weapon v. Armor Class modifiers, but it’s combat system no longer makes as much sense.

D&D’s combat system was built on a foundation of historical medieval combat. Then the foundation was removed. The house still stood and was beautiful but the foundation wasn’t there. Here’s what I mean.

Steps of D&D Combat

  1. To determine if your attack hits, compare Weapon Type to Armor Type. Any hit is a kill against its target. All combatants are assumed to be of equal skill, so we don’t worry about differences in accuracy. And we don’t worry about the weapon’s damage, because any hit is a kill; all that matters is whether the weapon penetrates the armor.
  2. Certain figures, being heroic, fight as if they are more than one figure. They can take more than one hit before they are killed. They can also make more than one attack.
  3. It doesn’t seem realistic that every attack always kills. Let’s replace each kill with “1d6 damage” and allow a creature to take “1d6 hit points” for every man it represents.
  4. It doesn’t seem realistic that superior combatants aren’t more likely to hit than normal combatants. Let’s increase accuracy of attacks for high level combatants.
  5. This is getting complex. Let’s stop worrying about which weapons are better than which weapons against which armor.
  6. Now that we’re stopped worrying weapons v. armor, it doesn’t seem realistic that a dagger is just as effective as a two-handed sword. Let’s make daggers deal less and two-handed swords deal more.
  7. If two-handed swords deal more, shouldn’t an ogre’s club and a giant’s boulder deal a LOT more? Totally should!
  8. This is a lot of attacks dealing a lot of damage at high accuracy. Everybody should just get one attack per round, not one attack per hit die.
  9. How come a giant still has trouble hitting a man in a plate armor even though he could just smash through the armor?
    10a. I don’t know, who cares, game on.
    10b. You are totally right. Let’s invent Runequest/Rolemaster/GURPS.